This page contains entries made beginning September 01, 2003.
These names and addresses are posted to enable people to contact friends and loved ones. Please do not exploit this information for commercial purposes.
I am looking for a Plymouth Brethren Church in Royal Oak, Michigan U.S.A. Does anyone know were it is, and the address and location, and what the Pastor name is? I would like to contact them.
Mr. Edmonds.
Guest: Dave Brewer
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Melbourne, Australia
Date & Comments: September 01, 2003
This is perhaps a belated comment to " Suppressed By Request's" contribution of the 16th August last, where-in he/she asks " why don't they (older peebs) wake up?"
Well, as now an older ex-peeb who was once caught up in the "System" as set on by WBH in the 1960's, I would make the following observation from all the visits we received about 6 months or so ago.
So many of the older peebs are either too unwell to take up the fight,(this in some cases is physically and other cases mentally) or are taking on the easy path of going with the flow. It's sad to realise that BDH now looms so large in their consciousness to the point where the head-ship of Christ has been replaced with the the rule of a mere man.
The "System" I was in and promulgated in the 60's was wicked and I could tell stories that would make some of you have nightmares. But I will spare you that.
Guest: Murray Hewines
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Rochester Hills (Detroit metro), United States
Date & Comments: September 01, 2003
Harry Edmonds:
Please contact me and I can provide you with the information. They have no "pastor" but I can give you the current leader's names, phone numbers and addresses.
My phone number is (248) 844-0976. We left that position 2 1/2 yrs ago.
Guest: W. Bradley McCallum
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Duesseldorf, Germany
Date & Comments: September 02, 2003
In response to Mr. Edmunds re Royal Oak, MI:
Royal Oak was where I was born and raised, where I was in fellowship until the late 90s, and where most of my family still lives. I would be happy to give you what information I can; feel free to contact me at the above email.
Guest: Don Jensen
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Birmingham, MI, United States
Date & Comments: September 02, 2003
It is disturbing to read about what some ex-PB's are writing about the Holy Scriptures. Several facts are obvious:
While I am uplifted when I read about individuals who have been released from the bondage of the PB's and found a new or renewed relationship with the Lord, I am saddened when I read contributions from those who left the PB's only to take on liberal teachings of many churches and false prophets or revert to their own human (often faulty) judgments and cast aside all that God's grace has done to assure eternal joy for His own and eternal worship for Himself.
Guest: Steve Innes
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Manchester, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: September 02, 2003
If Suppressed by request of Manchester U.K. listed on 20.08 03 is looking for some contact in the North West you may contact me on my e-mail
Guest: *suppressed by request*
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: bendigo, Australia
Date & Comments: September 02, 2003
How interesting it is at the monent in the brethren. Getting the young married couples to go back to church and promising them the world. But these couples are going back to get everthing they can but still carrying on with everything in the world, and going to church as usual. How long will it be till they wake up that they are leading a double life.
Guest: George Mair
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Maidenhead Berkshire, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: September 03, 2003
40 years ago last week, in front of the famous statue of Abe Lincoln in Washington (US), Martin Luther King Junior made his famous "I have a dream" speech. It got me to thinking about where I was 40 years ago - where we all were - and I have put forward an article to the "Contributions Page", and if our esteemed editor Dick considers it worthy of inclusion, it may deflect from the increasingly unhelpful and argumentative banter that is appearing of late in Dick's personal guestbook.
Guest: peter
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: United Kingdom
Date & Comments: September 04, 2003
With all due respect, I think we should leave it to Dick to regulate the content on the guest book if he feels the need to do so.
Argument and banter is part of life. One person finds it unhelpful, another finds it acceptable. We have all taken very different paths since our days in the peebs and I doubt if we will ever converge again. So let it go, read, agree or disagree, but don't try to suppress.
Guest: Cynthia White
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: United States
Date & Comments: September 04, 2003
Re: Stonewall, Manitoba . Please post a direct link on your What's New page to that simplistic, unresearched, idiotic, placating article presented by an obviously unseasoned reporter. Links to respond to and warn her editor, the Mayor, Governor, PM of Canada etc. would be most helpful.
Talk about snow jobs!!! Stonewall and other similarly vulnerable small towns need to be informed about the insidious, heavy-hands of the ExB master on his servants and what is likely to happen to their sweet little hometown.
Yikes - Attack of the Pernicious Purists! With umpteen non-Peeb lawyers on their payroll. Instead of rejoicing about attracting Peebs, me-fears poor ol' regular Stonewall residents are about to learn a tough lesson about the real meaning of "Stonewall".
Cynthia White
Guest: Phil Townshend
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: Sidney, Canada
Date & Comments: September 04, 2003
Re: New Exclusive Meeting in Stonewall, Manitoba.
Some folks being recruited from UK? How do they get thru immigration? Probably through the devious methods used to get South Africans into Australia and New Zealand.
I pity the poor folks from UK in their first Manitoba winter!! Imagine waking at 5 a.m. Sunday mornings and clearing a foot of snow from the drive while trying to start, and later drive a car in minus 40 degree weather to get to the first meeting. Oh boy! How long will they last?
Phil
Guest: Mike Tamplin
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: Hobart, Australia
Date & Comments: September 04, 2003
In 1962 our mother brought us into the brethren church as young kids, one brother was excommunicated at the age of 17 in 1971(ish), my sister and husband and family excommunicated in 1980, my wife and I and children resigned in 1985. Our youngest brother left 6 months ago at great emotional and financial cost. Our mother who is now in her 80's has just been to the UK for "meetings" and was given permission to visit her sister who she hasn't seen for 50 odd years. The arrangements were made and then changed at the last minute. Mother arrived with granddaughter and her husband and I assume a local to show them the way. They gave them 2 (two) minutes together, after 50 years! Where is the grace, mercy & compassion that Jesus showed. Thje only thing stopping me from going to the media is that a lot of innocent people could be publicly involved. Could someone email me Bruce Hales fax number to miketamplin@hotmail.com We as a family still practice our christian faith and I am a member of God's Squad Christian Motorcycle Club. To say that I am angry is an understatement.
Guest: Gordon Mathison
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: Langley, BC, Canada
Date & Comments: September 05, 2003
A word of caution about fraud and spam. Most of you will have gotten solicitations from Nigeria etc. in Africa offering millions to assist the export of bank accounts. I know for a fact that this site is monitored because I just got yet another email (I get 1 or 2 a day always with a different return address!) addressed to John Mathison, my dad. This site is the only one with my email address that is used for my dad who has no email. Obviously, the site is monitored for new email addresses. And this site, being "religious" in nature with many seniors, likely represents a gold mine for these very unscrupulous con artists "phishers". They will refer to "God's work" and all in the name "of our Lord Jesus" etc. etc. I suggest you use a program such as MailWasher. Check and read your mail here and process it or delete and/or/blacklist/and/or bounce the email back. It has the same effect as having an email returned which was emailed to a non existent address. Over time, the emails will fade away.
If anyone has gotten these emails I would appreciate hearing from you. In the meantime, God bless and keep you all. Gordon Mathison
Guest: Malcolm Lacey
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Orange, Australia
Date & Comments: September 07, 2003
Hi my father is Bruce Lacey. I have 3 kids, and have been out 19 years. I live in Enfield N.S.W.
Guest: Sarah Rowlands
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: London, England
Date & Comments: September 09, 2003
To Gordon Mathison of 5 September 2003.
I get 4-5 a day of those wretched emails you referred to .... have only received them since I first put a note in the guestbook.
If you know a way of getting rid of them for good, I would love to hear from you.
Guest: Tim Twinam
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Stowe, VT, United States
Date & Comments: September 09, 2003
Re: Nigerian Scam
A sad thought for those suffering from the frankly Evil curse of the Nigerian Scammers is that there is unfortunately only a very limited number of choices. The first and obvious choice is to make assumptive decisions based on the combination of Sender name and Subject. They often follow the approach of using an African-sounding name together with a 'please-help-me' Subject. Originally they used Europe-based free email facilities such as Caramail, but recently have started using Yahoo and Hotmail. Any automated spam-catching is going to affect potential genuine non-scam mail unless very sophisticated knowledge and rule-based 'fuzzy-logic' is harnessed.
The one rule to remember is DO NOT REPLY ... EVER.
In the absence of a suitable product, many use a previewing email utility that accesses your POP server instead of your Outlook/Eudora/Email Client. In effect, you are able to manually 'clean' the incoming emails by making decisions based on the displayed Title / Sender and the ability to quickly preview the email in text-only format. Once you have cleaned the list, you then load your email client to download those emails that you consider acceptable. Obviously this is not designed to be a virus scan, but in fact it can have that effect if you know what you are looking for.
An excellent free product available over the net is Magic Mail V2.9 which will connect you to multiple POP email servers. It doubles as a 'keep-alive' utility that can prevent you losing connection with your ISP due to timeouts. Download from: http://www.geeba.org/magic/ Use by reviewing the emails that have arrived in your mailbox(es) and deleting obvious or suspected spam and scam from the email server before you even download them onto your PC.
A product that we are testing here in Vermont legislature with some success is gloriously named 'SpamButcher'. It almost provides a satisfying sensation of revenge and delicious blood-letting (if that floats your boat). It's not free, but it is available on a 30 day free trial. With commercial products and services costing in excess of $300-$400 a month, the cost of $29.95 is minimal. Download from: http://www.spambutcher.com/
There is no guaranteed cure, but the new breed of spam-catchers are starting to make inroads. If it upsets you to receive some of these scam communications, then I'd recommend SpamButcher as currently one of the best values-for-money.
Regards,
Tim.
Guest: Judith perfect
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Stratford-upon-Avon, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: September 10, 2003
I was wondering if anyone has any information regarding the former Margaret Heath (married name unknown) of 1950s Blackheath, Birmingham meeting, or can refer to someone who knows how she may be contacted. It would be appreciated if any information could be sent to me direct at my email address above. Thank you.
Judith
Guest: George Mair
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Maidenhead Berkshire, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: September 10, 2003
I have been taken to task for appearing to condemn "the increasingly unhelpful and argumentative banter that is appearing of late in Dick's personal guestbook".
Of course, I did not mean - in any way - to suggest suppressions of freedom of speech. When I wrote those words, I was getting rather fed up with tedious schoolboy inferences to "birds", "tits" and "Essex".
Having to wait a week to retract or amend or explain a comment is a discipline I had not thought would have been necessary in Dick's site!
And so to bed...
Guest: Andrea Howden
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: England
Date & Comments: September 10, 2003
Re: The 'Wretched E-Mails' - I get them too! So I'm considering changing my e-mail address.
Guest: Stephen Rodgers
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Melbourne, Australia
Date & Comments: September 11, 2003
It is absolutely vital for anyone presently in Exclusive Brethren, who read this site and its testimonials of BROKEN FAMILIES to understand the ROOT cause.
The ROOT CAUSE OF EVIL IS DARBY HIMSELF.
This Man alone, not Taylor, not Symington, not the Hales is RESPONSIBLE FOR SMASHING THE FAMILY INSTITUTION.
John Nelson Darby, prodigy of a freemason, atacked the Family Institution, which is the Foundation of the Household of God, by BREAKING HIS MARRIAGE BETROTHAL VOWS, with the pathetic excuse it might hinder the Lords Work. RUBBISH! It was only to hinder his blind ambition! Now Lady Powerscourt, being the Lady she was, and her great love for Darby, made it as easy as possible for Darby to break his vows. What a cad! Even Darby's own Father was so distressed, he disinherited him. No problem for Darby, Brethren Leaders earn a lot more than the clergy.
No wonder we find so many testimonials to the attack on the Family on this site!
Guest: *suppressed by request*
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: United Kingdom
Date & Comments: September 11, 2003
Well, guess what I have received my request for a priestly visit. I was beginning to feel quite left out when I read about you all having your reviews, and I don't think!!! After having moved on and generally getting on with my life for well over 30 years I certainly won't be rejoining them. I understand they wish to unburden themselves about the error they made in kicking me out.
Well it's just like this: I have more than enough burdens of my own and I have no desire to take on theirs as well. Any unburdening they wish to do can be done in their own homes directly with God, there is no need for them to visit me - I can't give them absolution. I am perfectly happy with the peaceful life I live now; why on earth do these people think I would want to go back to their eternal arguing and endless silly rules; why do they think I made my escape in the first place?
Guest: W. Bradley McCallum
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Duesseldorf, Germany
Date & Comments: September 11, 2003
In response to Stephen Rogers diatribe regarding J. N. Darby,
Your vitriolic commentary about a man that you could not have possibly have known personally, can only have second hand knowledge of at best, and who is esteemed although highly controversial figure in some academic circles, is --I believe-- to be deeply unfair and unbalanced.
I too know the excruciating pain of a broken family caused by those who revere Darby as a semi-god. However I think it patently wrong to direct such venom at him personally -- indeed with respect to aspects of his private and personal life. It shows no evidence of grace or christian charity.
Guest: Arthur Boyt
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Cornwall (ex Watford), United Kingdom
Date & Comments: September 11, 2003
Stephen Rodgers in his forthright comments on JND mentions the income of these "men of God". Has anyone ever heard or worked out what was the total sum sent monthly by way of "levitical giving" to JT Jnr, JHS or JSH, or is sent to BDH?
Whatever did they manage to do with all that money?
Arthur Boyt
Guest: Francis
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Sacramento, CA, United States
Date & Comments: September 11, 2003
It strikes me that many of those escaped from the clutches of Peebism still cling to the notion that J. N. Darby was "right" and that only those "elect vessels" who later followed him are deserving of today's criticism.
I submit that this is a mistaken evaluation. The basic flaw of Brethrenism is not such tragedies as the drunken self-indulgences of a later leader. The basic flaw of Brethren is the doctrine of J. N. Darby alleging that separation "from evil" is the appropriate principle of unity. It is not.
A critical analysis of Peebism must begin with skeptical inquiry into the question: Was Darby correct? I think that an honest evaluation of Darby's work will conclude that he was simply tragically mistaken and that Darby's departure from the (Anglican) Church of Ireland was central to his sin. Elsewhere on this site Dick Wyman has posted my reconstruction of Darby's ordination vows. Please read it. I propose that the evil entered with Darby's failure to honor his solemn vows and vast suffering has resulted.
Guest: Peter French
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Melbourne; Mornington Peninsular, Australia
Date & Comments: September 12, 2003
I have read Bradley's comments, and do personally, or rather did, know Rogers. Interesting guy ...
I understand what he is saying, BUT no one can be restricted as to history and not be permitted to express an opinion simply because they were '...not there...', or do you really believe that?
Francis, I knew him as Frank, raises very serious issues as to Darby, and these are not trivialised or biased versions of history. They are balanced versions of history adequately researched for discussion at this level, although I sometimes do wonder what the level is here, but then it is an open forum ...
May I humbly suggest to any who would like to know the truth, that they start down the pathway some of use have taken and make open and balanced enquiry. The peebs wrecked a lot of us on two fronts - [i] in forbidding university education a lot of us who are post 1960 were never given the skills to research or enquire suitably, and [ii] we were conditioned to blind obedience which translates into enslaved thought processes, and these are still with many today. So take a detour and sit down with some of the Open Brethren who know their history, and for once shut up and listen. But no - how many of us still have hang-ups about the OB's?
Some of us, really do remove any doubt as to whether we are bigoted, biased, bible bashers or not.
Until the end, there will always a McCallum, a Rogers, a Francis, a French and a Stott, and a few other types as well ...
...and who will tell who of us is right and who is wrong? Personally, I hold to the view that PEEBISM was a cult of the worst kind from Day One - Darby Day! The evidence is too strong in support of that view not to accept it - my opinion.
Take it or leave it, or write to me and tell me I am a reprobate, and am lost for eternity as someone did last week - she gets her own chapter in my book. Or write to me and tell me to quit writing here, as happened the time before ... I just simply LOVE hate mail ... it does so justify what I hold to.
Guest: Chris Harwood
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Buckhurst Hill, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: September 12, 2003
There are those visiting this site who don’t give a fig about Darby (except that his name brings back bad memories) and there are those who have an academic interest in how right/wrong his overall philosophy was. There must also be some who think his word is unimpeachable.
To those who want to rid themselves of PBism I would suggest not working backwards from what you’ve been taught, but seeking the truth. Naturally, other Christians who haven’t been tainted by PBism will be a help but remember they too may have hangups about various issues surrounding the truth; none of us are perfect. The most reliable reference points are a respected translation of the Bible in a language you can understand (I suggest you wean yourself off Old English) and prayer/conscience, not forgetting that your conscience is probably distorted in critical areas.
Start by tackling issues that hurt you most - shunning next-door neighbours might be one. Making yourself look good to raise self-esteem may be another. Investigate Jesus’ attitude to people and avoid going to the opposite extreme to where you were. Finally make sure you don’t replace Darby or any of his successors with any other earthly individuals who might come between you and God. Jesus is the only mediator between God and humans. Finally, finally, you will not get it right this side of eternity! That’s why Jesus died.
Guest: Rosebud
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: Melbourne, Australia
Date & Comments: September 12, 2003
Just a brief note to Priscilla Buckland, (nee Stead). Did you live in Lindfield when you were growing up, and did you have a brother who married Janice Kennard? If so I think I remember your family. You would have been local with the Frank Kennards, the Willies, and whatever happened to the Dent boys?. My family were very poor and my father was not at all a conformist. John Hales soon put a stop to that. We left Sydney to move to another state in 1963.
Do I have the right person?
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Victoria, BC, Canada
Date & Comments: September 12, 2003
We've gone around this mountain before, but my contention is a major flaw of many groups is they hold their leaders to be the oracles of God, instead of seeing them for what they are - human beings with all the flaws common to humanity. It takes no effort or excercise to either endorse or reject their teachings, which is what so commonly held.
I.e. ''Mr.X'' is either [a] a beloved servent of the God and his ministry is authoritative, precidence of which is given over scripture, or [b] a ''heretic'' and doubtful if he was ever a christian at all.Unfortionately, no one takes the time to realise that these people are human, and that means sometimes they are right, and sometimes they are wrong - even with the best of intentions.
This, however does not deter the general following of demanding [a] total adherance, or [b] total rejection, of everything they ever said or did. Such en mass judgements require absolutely no research, no personal effort, they fall strictly on party lines, and the sad history bears testimony to the tragic results.You don't even have to get up off your chair to be involved. In the end, instead of doing the work we were mandated to do, being an ambasssador for Christ, we spend our time and energy on reinacting the futile disputes of the past, the end results accomplish nothing - except bring the christian testimony into disrepute. And until we learn the lessons of history, we shall be condemned to repeat them.
Guest: Oliver Bedford
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: Sydney, Australia
Date & Comments: September 12, 2003
I can strongly recommend a new book "Infidels" by Andrew Wheatcroft, about the history of Muslim / Christian relationships over the centuries. It's a fascinating read, and the other day Prince Hassan of Jordan (no less) mentioned it in an interview on the BBC radio international service.
For us ex-EB's the book has an extra interest, as Andrew refers to his grandfather's Darby Bible, Cruden's Concordance etc. I suspect he comes from one of the Wheatcroft families I can remember from my EB youth in the UK.
Infidels is published by Penguin Viking.
Cheers
Oliver
ps, for Alan Carvell, Birmingham are off to a good start !
Guest: David Trewarn
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Perth, Australia
Date & Comments: September 14, 2003
I refer to my entry in this guestbook 21/8/03. I would like the previous entry removed as it was written in a moment of anger and fear. The fear was that the friendship and love we were enjoying with our families, would end without notice. I realize now, that this fear was without substance. The fear fed the anger, fuelled with a couple of drinks, and my anger was vented on this keyboard. As we all know, in our journey through life, an action like this, from a place of anger, is wrong, hurtful, and profits nothing. I spoke about Bruce Hales as if I knew the man. I don't, I have never met him. Therefore, I feel that my opinion of him, was based on nothing. I have been judgemental and misled, and therefore held him accountable for every injustice I have ever felt. Please forgive me.
To all the people who witnessed my anger in that entry I apologize. I am ashamed that I acted in anger instead of love, which was why our saviour died on the cross, for us, for peace, in love and I was not respectful of that.
I love the song of John Lennon's:
there's nothin in this world that can't be done, no one in this world that can't be saved, all you need is love, love, love is all you need.
Guest: charles turner
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: London, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: September 15, 2003
The other day I was watching the 'dreaded' television and there was a programme on 'Paul'. The brethren now liken all their leaders to the modern day Paul.
One of Pauls strongest stands was that all christains should eat together whether they were Jews or gentiles. In doing this he fell out with James and other biblical figures and ultimatley lost his life.
Can anyone confirm to me whether this is true or not? When I was young and in the PB's I took very little notice of the bible. Now I keep stumbling across things which seem totally opposite to PB teachings.
Guest: Roger Clark
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Newcastle, Australia
Date & Comments: September 16, 2003
To Rosebud of 12 Sept.
Although I'm not Priscilla, I remember all the people you mentioned. Steads were a big family, the Dents (Gary & Russell) moved to Wilberforce in 1970 I think around the time a new meeting was set up at Willoughby. I knew the Kennards and the Heany's, two boys, David & Phillip (?) a little older than me. Ron Willie was a rich guy I remember. Please get in touch if you'd like to talk.
Guest: Tim Twinam
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Stowe, VT, United States
Date & Comments: September 16, 2003
Hey David,
You're not alone in blaming EB leaders. I personally never knew any of them either. I once listened to a surprisingly small, bald and beady-eyed J.T. Jr. at Park Street (in maybe my first spiritually-endowed moment, I thought that the Universal Leader looked like a vulture up there on his perch) - I didn't think anything then of the numerous sips he took from a fast-emptying glass of amber-colored liquid stored under his seat.
Away from the notoriety surrounding the Big Jim era, there are some who still blame J.N.D. for almost everything (although I think certain Oz reports of his Al Qaeda links are probably exaggerated); others would pin the moment that the wine went sour upon J.N.D.s' temerity to leave the Anglican communion; yet others blame him for the formation of bible-belt America even though he never married ... and lately, a new twist - a future Australian National Enquirer headline will read: 'J.N.D. not the true father of Dispensationalism - stolen from the Jesuits (and they want it back)'.
At least the Roman Catholics seem to have an idea of what the Holy Bible actually says on some topics .. it's humbling and an indictment that the historically wayward RC's appear to be almost publicly alone today in their scripture-based views on homosexuality and abortion. As, by the way, are also the Exclusive Brethren. What a collection to have in common! A papacy, terrifying errors and yet a tiny remnant of truth struggles for air.
The real fault, is that the focus changed. A true Bride of Christ should not concentrate on anything apart from her Bridegroom. But intellectual pride can create a mighty chasm between the gentle faith and simplicity of Acts ... and where the EB's now wander lost in a wilderness of their own making. So who became proud first? Weren't we all at one time? So who should throw the first stone?
A man who wrote the following in his bible:
"That Thou should'st have delight in me,
And be the God Thou art,
Is darkness to my intellect,
But sunlight to my heart."
is not a man who was totally dominated by his immense theological and scholarly capabilities.
I submit that the moral decay of today’s Anglican church, full of exploding liberalism and the resulting internal rifts, would have hurled the 'Father of the Brethren' a lot further than Dublin and a simple yearning to "... see Him more clearly".
For a man prone to falling from horses and not marrying into one of Irelands most wealthy families (Well guys, would you want to marry a prophetess? I mean ... think about it!) he kept himself quite busy. JND translated the bible into German, English, was a prolific poet and song-writer and was certainly an eminent theologian and scholar. You know? Maybe he simply didn't have time to 'go get a life'?
But that doesn't make Lord Nelsons' great grandson WICKED. I'm sure JND himself would have cracked a rare smile if one suggested that his tombstone, with its enigmatic "As unknown and well known" epitaph, might benefit from that which appears for Benjamin Franklin:
"Like the Cover of an old Book
Its Contents turn out
And Stript of its Lettering & Guilding
Lies here. Food for Worms
For, it will as he believed
appear once more
In a new and more elegant Edition
corrected and improved
By the Author".
Smiles,
Tim
Guest: Judith Perfect
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Stratford-upon-Avon, England
Date & Comments: September 16, 2003
Following my posting on 10th September asking for information about Margaret Heath, I had problems with my computer. It is now fixed, but I have changed my email address and for anyone who was good enough to send any information about Margaret, I'm afraid I did not get it as the computer 'bit the dust' the day after my request. I would be very grateful if any information could be sent to my new email address above. Thank you
Judith
Guest: *suppressed by request*
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: Sydney, Australia
Date & Comments: September 17, 2003
Re: Comments in What’s New Sept 11/03
Regarding the application of a "Public School for Exclusive use only" in Winnipeg Canada. This is an interesting case as the EB's also claim that their meeting rooms are a place for public worship, however for Exclusive use only. The school system is just one minor system within the system if you know what I mean.
Whilst on the EB subject. They jump like cats on a hot tin shed when you mention that they are controlled by one mans thinking, and draw the comparison that they are not all that different to Muslim fundamentalist, Catholics, and Communist.
What do the EB's and the 3 mentioned above all have in common?. The lack of democratic freedom, and processes.
Guest: Peter
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: United Kingdom
Date & Comments: September 18, 2003
Ref JND and Lord Nelson.
As far as I know they were not related. Nelson, as a friend of the family, possibly agreed to be godfather, I think, but it is doubtful if he was available to be at the christening.
In 1800, when JND was born, Nelson would have been pretty busy in the war against the French, and by 1805 had got himself killed at Trafalgar.
Guest: Stephen Rodgers
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Melbourne, Australia
Date & Comments: September 18, 2003
More headlines from the Land of OZ.
"PEOPLE ONLY GET THE LEADERS THEY DESERVE"
I do not think James Alec Gardiner and Stanley McCallum showed much christian grace and charity, by invading the Privacy of another man's bedroom. In the great land of OZ, that would be an unlawful invasion of privacy, even if Taylor had 10 women in his boudoir!
Entering a bedroom with the knowledge of a possible naked wife of another man being present, and the more frightening prospect of Taylor in his birthday suit, is not only disgusting but priestly service gone totally mad.
Just Taylor having spent 4 nights in the same bedroom is sufficient evidence, with another man's wife!
Guest: George Mair
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Maidenhead Berkshire, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: September 18, 2003
Having just got used to going around your site Dick, I now discover the glossary you have so thoughtfully provided! (Me wonders how many other hidden pages are within this site).
I now know that I am an athiest, but I am not at all sure I like being described - according to Dick's source - "American Heritage Dictionary" - as "immorality". That is VERY subjective.
Suggesting that I am immoral because I don't believe in what the American Heritage Dictionary considers to be right (ie a belief in a god or God) is an erosion of freedom of speech, and indeed, could be against "The Rights of Man" - the essay by Thomas Payne, who helped write the Constitution for the USA.
Dick, it is frustrating to being constrained to one hundred words and one contribution a week to your lively guestbook, so I offer a short article to the "Contributions" page. I hope you find it fit for publication.
As ever,
Guest: dave p
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: United Kingdom
Date & Comments: September 18, 2003
Do the EB's need to be closed down?
I have thought many thoughts of the EB's:-
Are they legal? Should I encourage as many as I can to leave? Should I sue them? Are they right?Are they charitable? Should I join them? Are they harmless?
I have to say that I have varied my thinking over the years. For a long time I thought that they were so wrong that I should tell as many as possible to leave. Then I thought that may be they were right. I then thought that they were very wrong but the members require it to continue. I then thought that it would be much better for them to stay together and work to change the rules a little, perhaps build a relationship with the EV and encourage positive change.
I now believe that they are extremely wrong, but to the members the need for EB fellowship is very strong and very real. But does this justify the continuity of the EB's? I think not. They would be devastated if it were outlawed, even suicidle. But remember this, they have historically caused much harm, ( including suicides) but what have they achieved? They do not attract new membership. They only breed members and teach them how to need membership, then fill that need. They cast out those that do not comply or chose to opt out and the results are: broken families, lost jobs, lost homes, and more. Long term, this has got to be worse than the short term loss of fulfilled need of the members.
Is it as simple as a choice between:-
The members induced need/desire to attend meetings being met, v. broken families, suicides, job losses, home losses, rejection, and more?
Over the last 20 years what have they done?
Won souls for the Lord, none.
Given to charity, none.
Enriched a society, no.
Welcomed interested people, none.
Gained members, <20.
Split families, hundreds.
Taken homes, hundreds.
Lost jobs, hundreds.
Cost in unlawful dismissal, £many millions.
The cost to members of closing the EB's would be high in the short term but the relief of hardship for many more would be greater in perhaps less than 10 years. I believe that we should do what we can to prevent the EB's from continuing. They are not legal, charitable, biblical or helpful (to anyone but members taught to require them).
How do we help them? Love them, talk to them, inform the Charity Commissioners of their conduct, invoice them for the cost of their behaviour, keep the media informed, attend meetings regularly under the rights given by charitable status and pray for them.
What say you?
Dave P.
Guest: John Christopher
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Coventry, England
Date & Comments: September 19, 2003
The dangers of following a man rather than The Man and taking scripture out of context. My heart goes out to those who are still trapped by fear.
Me? I came out in 1970. Lived in Walsall, England at the time - anyone remember the Christophers?
Guest: Mark Ghinn
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: London, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: September 19, 2003
To Dave P,
I like your thinking, interesting, but I most liked your, "build a relationship with the EV and encourage positive change" comment. I have been asking to meet this man for many months but it has not yet happened, I think that he alone can make the changes required.
Mark Ghinn
Guest: Mary
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: United Kingdom
Date & Comments: September 20, 2003
Like thousands of others, I regularly follow this website. I very often am tempted to respond to some of the issues raised, but as a 'worldly' non-EX EB I do not wish to abuse Dick's hospitality too often. However, I do recognise George Mair's exasperation with the mis-interpretation of Atheism and, even more so, the often mis-understood concept of Agnosticism and would therefore refer to some excellent websites on these subjects. Anyone who is familiar with e.g. Buddhism could never accuse atheists of being immoral. Whilst Buddhism is not a religion but more a philosophy, the concept of love is the main issue.
Dick's fantastic website, was set up for Ex EBs (and EBs !) to enable them to stay in touch with and support each other and [some contributor's] subjects, however interesting, often stray from that objective.
As I recognise in [these] contributions a prolific writer, with a strong need for expression, I wonder if [they] would not like to set up a website(s), possibly with a link placed on Dick's website ? It would provide a platform for a slightly more intellectual debate, which is sometimes felt to be lacking.
Guest: Richard Green
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Salisbury, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: September 20, 2003
Having read Dave P’s Comments of 18th September, it is worth re-reading Dick Wyman’s postings of the 12th and 13th April at everyman.html.
Guest: Phil Lacey
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Auckland, New Zealand
Date & Comments: September 20, 2003
Was in the Huntingdon meeting in the UK
Guest: Alan Carvell
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Dudley, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: September 21, 2003
I work for a company in the UK who supplies South West Laminates in Newton Abbott, (who are owned by peeb’s) one of their guys advised our sales representatives that [someone] and his wife and kids have gone back to the peebs, he used to be a regular contributor to this site,
I’ve done a search in google www.exclusivebrethren.net for anything on him but all has been deleted even his entries to the guestbook, and his entry from the names section! So another one bites the dust! Has anyone else got any info on this?
While I’m writing I would just like to mention the subject of football, Good old Birmingham City FC.have got off to a good start, still unbeaten this season in the Premier League! Sorry to rub it in with the Villa supporters out there (Hi Mrs Perfect!) and the Wolves fans (Hi Mr Butler!)
It’s been interesting listening to all the debates recently and watching many individuals getting all wound up over them! As I’ve said before chill out, relax, life’s too short, follow my religion just take a look at my local church’s web site www.blues.premiumtv.co.uk. At this site you can meet our local leader Steve Bruce and his many disciples, and this is where true faith begins! Come and join us every other Saturday at 3.00pm. for worship, for the alternative Saturdays we visit various other fellowship meetings around the country yesterday 20.09.03 we visited Leeds and had a lovely warm occasion, B’ham contributed twice with Leeds deciding to contribute nothing and leave the worshiping to all the visitors! So again please continue to pray for us, so that in our little fellowship meetings we will find guidance, direction, strength, love and support.
PS. We look forward to our friends and brethren visiting us from Portsmouth next Saturday, a warm welcome awaits to all, come and join us! refreshments are provided at a small cost and you’ll also be able to purchase our programme that will include forth coming meetings. It also includes the lyrics of our hymns; my favourite being ‘Keep right on to the end of the road’ always brings a tear to my eye that one!!
Alan (Bluenose.)
Guest: Cynthia White
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: South Montesano, WA, United States
Date & Comments: September 22, 2003
Quiet-observance from outside media sources beam on this site from many "worldly" angles. The spotlight shines brighter on the Exclusive Brethren "System". Methinks this is beneficial to all associated with abuse from JND to BDH's reigns.
Dick, thanks for providing such a wonderful public service.
Cynthia White
Guest: vanessa cummings
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: New Zealand
Date & Comments: September 21, 2003
To Priscilla Wood.
Please get in touch with Vanessa Cummings nee Janson or Please ask Marlene Hill to get in touch as I have not heard from her for along time and I would like to know that she is OK. I have tried to ring her but the line has been cut off also her email is not working.
Thanks Vanessa
Guest: John
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: Belfast, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: September 23, 2003
I recently came across an unnamed meeting hall in the small village of Dollingstown, near Lurgan, N Ireland - it has no denominational title or other identifying marks on the exterior, other than a small notice inviting passers-by to come and hear the gospel at 7pm on a Lord's Day evening. Several years ago, I came across a similar building several miles away in Portadown (Edward Street) which was also anonymous, had no windows and the only sign was a small board announcing a gospel meeting on a Lord's Day evening. Does anyone know if these are Exclusive Brethren meeting rooms of some description, or another faction? The first building I mentioned does have windows, but with frosted glass (?)which made me wonder as I thought EB rooms have no windows? Neither of the halls I mentioned appear to be "Open" Brethren, as in N Ireland these almost always call themselves Gospel Halls and advertise all their meetings publicly.
Guest: Derek Reid
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Lurgan (formerly Belfast), United Kingdom
Date & Comments: September 23, 2003
Commenting on this:
Guest: John
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: Belfast, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: September 23, 2003
I recently came across an unnamed meeting hall in the small village of Dollingstown, ................................
The hall you are referring to in Dollingstown I think is a small Gospel Hall. It was never "Exclusive". The other hall which you refer to in Edward Street (I think you might actually be referring to the hall on Carrickblacker Road?) in Portadown. This hall was used by the exclusives for many years by the brethren in Ashley avenue (Belfast Headquarters) before 1970) and afterwards by the group which left in May 1970 as the "Portadown Locality". In recent times approx 2 years ago, I understand there was another split with a small number remaining which I know about.
Please remember, these are different from the brethren amongst the Taylorites (JT Junior variety). They are similiar to some "Gospel Hall" brethren except they do not have Sunday School. They also do not have music etc but do sincerely preach the Gospel. For more info you can contact me by email.
Guest: Tony Hewson
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Young, Australia
Date & Comments: September 24, 2003
I am a former Mayor & current Councillor (alderman) in a town called Young (southern Australia). We have had a number of brethren move to town buying expensive properties & businesses.
I have no problem with any adult following whatever religion they wish, however forcing kids to give up their childhood adventures in favour of sect brainwashing is horrific.
Can anyone tell me what part of the EB sect they belong to and which leader they follow?
I am also interested in any stories of the evil goings on that this supposed church has undertaken in Australia.
regards,
Tony Hewson
Guest: Gerard Rayment
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Southend-on-Sea, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: September 25, 2003
Tom Hewson, you mention a child 'having to give up their childhood adventures'. You have a point.
The youngest of our 4 children [Gemma 10] is exceptionally outgoing and confident, a founder member of the school student council etc.etc. Partly down to personality, but I am sure it is also due to the fact that we left the peebs before she was 2 years old - so her life has not been blighted by the peeb culture.
I think the struggle some expeebs have to settle in the normal world goes right back to their failure to attend playschool with normal kids. The peebs creating their own 'education' system can only make matters even worse.
Guest: Al
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Worcs, England
Date & Comments: September 26, 2003
Interesting comment made by Tony Hewson and Gerard Rayment.
I spent my childhood in the Exclusives only getting kicked out at 15. We did have to make our own fun and although it would be untrue to say that we did not have childhood adventures, these were certainly curtailed as regards the freedom that other children enjoyed. What it did teach me was that there were other things besides TV and the lack of radio, records and the like encouraged me to make things and read a lot. A friend of mine remarked the other day about how knowledgeable about childrens books I was when helping her kids with their homework. It also encouraged my quest for knowledge.
A lot of conflict was caused when I got my first electric guitar at 14 (cheers Ray) and I needed to listen to stuff other than the standard allowed Seekers etc. The old folks nearly lost their minds when I started churning out heavy blues riffs instead of strumming folk chords.
The other thing a childhood in the Ebs taught you was to be economic with the truth and the old man was really under the belief that I was an ardent cyclist in my youth. Not particulary, I just used to socialise with the other kids from school under the guise of a marathon cycle ride.
Fortunately I managed to get out before it ruined my social life altogether and the thought of still being in there appalls me.
regards to all
Al
Guest: *suppressed by request*
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: London, England
Date & Comments: September 26, 2003
Concerning dave p and Mark Ginn's recent correspondence, I can tell them that both myself and my M.P. have made our concerns about the peeb's known to the Charity Commission, both in person and by letter, The reply letter from the Charity Commission is waffle and they do not intend to take action, it seems they are like a dog with no teeth or bark.
Guest: Pam
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Brisbane, Australia
Date & Comments: September 26, 2003
I am researching the family history of COOPER originally from Essex UK. I have good information that a number of family members, who are Exclusive Brethern or Open Brethern, live or have lived in the Bulimba/Hawthorne area in Brisbane Australia.
Please free to contact me if you have any information on my relatives. Any contact with family members really appreciated.
Guest: George Mair
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Maidenhead Berkshire, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: September 26, 2003
This is an open copy of a message I have sent to Tony Hewson.
Having been a former elected member, in a similar position as you are now, I will respond to you tomorrow privately, and I may very well send a copy to the guestbook on Dick Wyman's site. You have certainly come to the right site to find out about these evil people. The prime target for you, I think, may be the "charitable" status that they "enjoy". I don't know the rules in your country, but (I paraphrase for simplicity) that in the UK any "places of worship which are open to the public" are "exempt from paying "rates" on their property or some such "tax" on the property. Although the "Notice of Meetings" outside their halls suggest that at the gospel meeting that "All are welcome" - they are emphatically NOT! To get that "welcome" in fact someone like you or me, really have to be "screened" if you are worthy to enter their premises. (I suspect this is due in part to the investigative style of some journalists [that is their job after all] that the Exclusive Brethren are wary of "strangers", and therefore, I would suggest: their premises are not open to "the general public" - such as you and I.) There are many other people referring to this subject on this site, and I suggest that you or your research assistant does a lot of research. (I always found that 90% of research was non-profitable - but the 10% was dynamite). More tomorrow...
Regards,
George Mair
Guest: D J Hurst
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: Berkshire, England
Date & Comments: September 27, 2003
Can someone square this circle: The Exclusive Brethren do not vote. In Australia it is compulsory to vote. Do the Exclusives enter the polling station and leave the ballot paper blank or spoil it so it cannot be counted.
In England, only Lords, Lunatics and prisoners are not permitted to vote - even if they wanted to. Is there a clause in the Australian Electoral Law allowing residents to abstain?
Just curious.
Guest: *suppressed by request*
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: Auckland, New Zealand
Date & Comments: September 29, 2003
I wanted to learn something about the beliefs and rules of EB's. I was intrigued by this site. I experienced disbelief and anger at the hypocrisy.
Later I witnessed this hypocrisy myself and was convinced that the system was breaking down. Recently I have come to a point where it really doesn't make any difference what I think. They will continue on regardless of how annoyed, upset or angry we may get.
As for their charitable status, there are lots of 'rackets' in our world, they're no different to thousands of others that sucessfully avoid taxes or gain grants for things. They probabaly keep company with many that governments turn a blind eye to.
It is too easy for me to suggest not worrying about them, I haven't been hurt by them. But I believe that the wheels are turning very slowly and when the older generation are gone and the younger ones are the adults and leaders, there will be a difference. They know what they're missing out on.
They ARE secreting radios, CD players, and cellphones in their homes and cars. They do use the computers at the library and non Brethren homes and go to the movies and cafes. They have been to my home to use the computer. The young ones see the hypocrisy, they're trapped. Have sympathy for them. Treat them as normally as possible so they can see what they are missing out on and how we care for each other. I know that's not entirely possible when Ex EB are not given the opportunity to mix with them.
Bruce Hales hasn't got the control that he might think he has. He's the joke!
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Victoria, BC, Canada
Date & Comments: September 29, 2003
One of the things I fail to understand is why the pb's carry on sending vast sums of cash to the leadership - these people have made themselves rich at the expense of the general populace. How many hundreds of thousands of dollars - or millions have been funneled into the leaders bank accounts? I recently heard of just one case where one of the beneficiaries [in] admitted to his brothers [out] that he sent $200,000 to the Hales trust account. How many times has this been repeated?
The bible warns us of those who would "shear the sheep" in contrast to those who "shepherd the sheep". It also says there would be those who would emerge, not from without, but from within, wolves in sheeps clothing, who would devastate the flock.
Truely, this prophecy has been fulfilled - once again - and will continue to repeat itself until the brethren return to being governed by scripture - not a man made ministry.
Guest: Rod Wilkins
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Brisbane, Australia
Date & Comments: September 30, 2003
To D J Hurst who asks
The Exclusive Brethren do not vote. In Australia it is compulsory to vote. Do the Exclusives enter the polling station and leave the ballot paper blank or spoil it so it cannot be counted.
Can't answer this. Whilst I disagree with compulsory voting, I go with the flow. I work for the government, so I would be foolish to do otherwise - just as I never declare my political colours! However, the penalty for not voting (assuming they catch up with you) is $10 (about £4) so I'm sure the collection box could cope with this evil every few years!
Guest: *suppressed by request*
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: Randwick, Australia
Date & Comments: September 30, 2003
No, Brethren complete a declaration, re: voting, about being conscientious objectors and quoting scripture implying Gods Government. I do not know of any Brethren member in Australia ever being fined