This page contains entries made beginning August 01, 2003.
These names and addresses are posted to enable people to contact friends and loved ones. Please do not exploit this information for commercial purposes.
We were excommuniated in 1962 whilst living in Newport Mon. Our sin was eating with unbelievers.
We moved to Melbourne 1970 and are in happy fellowship with Baptist Church in Beaumaris. We are both involved in Christian outreach and have never regretted being set free. Praise the Lord.
It is so good to be able to witness to unsaved and to speak about our Saviour and Friend, Jesus Christ.
Guest: Malcolm Coutie
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Ellon, Scotland, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: August 02, 2003
Brought up in Dundee in 'Frost-Strang' thread who split at Renton division in 1972. Left after getting married in 1997 to Sandra, from Burghead. Parents are Peter & Muriel Coutie, wife's parents William & Elizabeth Davidson.
The practices of the group we left and those much more legalistic seem to be increasingly irrelevant in todays society. Evangelistic outreach is minimal with a few true exceptions. Bible readings were very theoretical and did not challenge one on how to lead one's daily life and the gospel often appears to be a ritual. The continued existence of a meeting in a place seemed to be more important than the fact that round about thousands were passing to a lost eternity.
We now go to the local Baptist Church which has given us the opportunity to make a difference and whose desire is to see souls come to Christ.
Guest: George Mair
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Maidenhead Berkshire, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: August 01, 2003
The reference to tits is a real boob-boob - really juvenile and unworthy of this site. Come on you guys, grow up.
Guest: Oliver Bedford
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: Sydney, Australia
Date & Comments: August 01, 2003
Yes, no more than once a week is a great idea. So here's my thought for the week.
The EB's present-day one-man dictatorship makes a strange contrast with the multiplicity of EB leaders' works that were being published a century ago. This thought was brought to my mind by the weekly newsletter from Scottish Christian bookseller Peter Reynolds (website http://www.peterreynoldsbooks.co.uk) which in the last two weeks has advertised books by Coates, Mackintosh, Kingscote, Kelly, Dennett, Cutting, Miller, H F Nunnerley, and more recent, S McCallum and G Cowell. Indeed, when young, I had a book of "Notes of Readings with JND and JBS", where JBS (Stoney) did almost as much talking as Darby, who didn't seem to object !
Compare that with the one-man dictatorship that now exists, or the Hales family business as Dick perceptively calls it.
Oliver
Guest: George Mair
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Maidenhead Berkshire, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: August 02, 2003
I have changed me e-mail yet again! Sorry I am messing you about Dick. Anyone passing by might want to change it to georgeanddinah@msn.com
Guest: Joyce Ritchie
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Brisbane, Australia
Date & Comments: August 03, 2003
I have just read "Shut Up Sarah" and felt I was reading my own story except she was about six/seven years younger that I was and unfortunately, my family stayed in. Does anybody know what happened to 'Sarah'? Would love to hear any news. Also, must go and buy "Don't Call me Sister" now, Marion Field certainly has done excellent work.
Guest: Roger Stott
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Exeter, Devon, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: August 03, 2003
It's a little difficult to keep an intelligent conversation going with the new 'once in 7 days' rule in operation. (Although I understand and sympathise with Dick's dilemma.)
I liked being called a 'backslider'. Does that correspondent also use Jacobean language in his everyday life (and does he also wear doublet and hose)?
Many of those who have responded to my agonised plea about not being ignorant sneerers at science in all its aspects have asserted the primacy of FAITH. A primacy which they assert over all other forms of perception. My problem with that is that there are so MANY alternative faiths. Once you move over from the kind of truth which can be researched and proved -into the realms of 'revelation' and 'faith'- you have a bewildering range of choice. Christianity itself is divided into scores if not hundreds of different versions of 'THE TRUTH' and then there are all the different versions of Judaism, Taoism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, and a hundred or more other local little tribal faiths which are held just as strongly as the version of post brethren fundamentalism which is asserted on these pages.
It is a brethren (and it seems an ex-brethren) fashion to decry and denigrate any form of orthodox knowledge and opinion. To go out and live in all kinds of screwball cul-de-sacs of anti-knowledge. This is stupid and self-crippling and wilfully blind. If you really want an objective view of the state of knowledge at this point in human history go to the Encyclopedia Britannica and look up 'creationism' and 'evolution' (as well as 'human evolution') and try to regain a sense of perspective.
I suggest this not out of any attempt at self-justification or any kind of point-scoring. Just in the interests of sanity and objectivity and an escape from the overheated apocalyptic sillinesses that we all have escaped from. Fundamentalism is not the ultimate truth. It is a sad and overheated exaggeration which distorts human lives and leads to all kinds of unfortunate kinds of mental distortion.
Roger Stott
Guest: Rod Wilkins
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Brisbane, Australia
Date & Comments: August 04, 2003
Dick's new policy of one guestbook entry per week seems to have met with approval and I was hoping the previously suggested 100-word limit would also be enforced by the new 'guest form logic'.
That way we could have more meeting and greeting and less preaching!
Guest: Kate T
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Singleton, Australia
Date & Comments: August 04, 2003
Thank you Cynthia and 'bb' for your replies. I have since been contacted by the brethren in regard to the original message I posted on this website - apparently they are monitoring this site very closely and will probably be reading this very message by this afternoon.
Unfortunately for the brethren family that are trying to extend their house and block my parent's view (not on purpose, I'm sure, but that would ultimately be the end result), they have moved next door to the wrong people. My parents, especially my mother, are the strongest people I've ever met and will do everything in their power to keep what has been theirs for the last 23 years. Brethren or not - you don't move into a new neighbourhood and five minutes later disregard your neighbours and contradict the respect that the surrrounding residents have for each other - and the fact that everyone in the area has built their properties in such a way that the view of the reserve is enjoyed equally by everyone. Perhaps whomever monitors this site may pass this message on - I'm almost certain they will. My parents are good people and do not deserve this problem.
Guest: Tim Twinam
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Stowe, VT, United States
Date & Comments: August 05, 2003
I enjoyed the 'warmish' final paragraph of J. Stott’s 'Weekly Letter from the West Country' almost as much as the call to the brethrens' favorite reference work - the Encyclopedia Britannica. (Did you realize that they even have the website www.eb.com? Perhaps there is a wicked conspiracy here ...).
Anyway, I'm sure many join with me in hoping John's "agonised plea" has not caused any permanent damage. And may I be one of the first to congratulate him on the discovery of yet another Brethren group ... The "Post-Brethren Fundamentalists". It has a certain ring and surely should have a flag or some kind of banner.
In the same way that John seems to enjoy the label of 'backslider', I have to state that I'd be honored to be categorized as a Fundamentalist. You see, far from being "an exaggeration", Fundamentalism is precisely what the word means: it is the essence, the basics, the foundation, the word possesses a certain purity ... Based on that definition therefore, all additions must form the "exaggeration" to which John refers, and the true "sadness" is the "distortion" that has evolved in the plethora of man-made religions and belief systems (some of which John lists).
Christianity is very exclusive. Exclusivism is NOT Christianity. Christ stated very bluntly: "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No-one comes to the Father apart from through me". There is no debate, no escape and no hiding place from the purest meaning of those words. THAT is fundamental. The only choice is to Accept or Deny. And to Deny might be construed as being rather "stupid, self-crippling and wilfully blind".
Purity of thought is a beautiful thing. Sometimes artists catch it with a curve or a line; musicians with a combination of notes; poets with word-pictures ... purity of belief has beauty too. Far from causing illness or "mental distortion", a true pure belief in basic eternal principles passes far beyond ridiculous man-made labels or synthesized and sanitized dilutions. It offers Peace. It IS the gold at the end of the rainbow.
I am fond of the old adage: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". A sad human instinct is to reinvent and rewrite. Trouble is, we're not that good at it! It's an indictment that the fundamental truths of our existence have become so distorted and obfuscated that we have to look up words like Creation and Fundamental in an encyclopedia or a dictionary! It bears suggesting that the reason for this is because fundamental truth, by its very nature, is unpalatable, unarguable and far greater than anything we can dream up ... in fact, anything but "silly".
Tim
Guest: John Gibbs
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Johannesburg, South Africa
Date & Comments: August 06, 2003
One of the side effects of leaving the Peebs is that you are cut adrift from your roots. Some people may find it therapeutic to reconnect to their roots, like building up their family tree and reconnecting with long lost branches of the family. It is good for our children to learn something of their family when they can’t have contact with their grandparents.
We recently visited Argentina for a holiday (even cheaper than South Africa!) and visited the town of Campana where my great grandparents emigrated and my grandfather George Gibbs - grew up (older Spanish speaking brethren will possibly remember him as he used to minister to them in Spain and Argentina in the ‘40s and ‘50s).
We contacted Robin and Eileen Garvie whilst in Buenos Aires and were shown kindness and fellowship by them. It was good to be reminded of a positive side of the brethren culture we inherited – the unique bond of caring for others.
Guest: W. Bradley McCallum
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Duesseldorf, Germany
Date & Comments: August 06, 2003
Having once been a fundamentalist, the struggle I have had, personally, is that when scriptures are taken literally, and a literal reading is held to in an unequivocal way, the question becomes: why not all the scriptures? Jesus also said, in addition to His being the Way to the Father, that if your eye offends you, pluck it out. How can I say to someone, yes, unquestionably, this passage here is literal, must be taken at face value, with no attempt to understand it's perhaps deeper, more subtle meaning, but this passage here is figurative, and must be understood in a spiritual way. It may be that what the Spirit gives me to understand in my own experience with God may not be the same as the Spirit's work in my brother or sister.
Regarding Christianity's "exclusivity", I have found rather the message of the Gospel to be wondrously inclusive, with salvation available to all. I understand, yes, that if there are conditions, then it is necessarily exclusive by definition, but that is God's prerogitive--the judgement. Jesus says I am the Way: how can I ever completely understand the full scope of that Way? I have found peace with my God through Jesus and the work that he accomplished; I have found reconciliation with my Creator by virtue of the blood of His Son. Does this then, give me license to say that I know definitively all the ways in which the Way can be known or is known? To say that, or to act in that way, seems to confine acts of divine sovereignty to my individual understanding. I can proclaim the message as to how God in Christ has impacted my life, but can I condemn what may indeed be God's work in others?
Guest: Sheila MacLachlan Seesahai
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Winnipeg, Canada
Date & Comments: August 06, 2003
Just a quick note to say that I am going on another ex-brethren-meeting trip. I will be in the UK from August 11 - 28. I am looking forward to meeting many of the contributors to this site. Once again, I'd like to thank Dick Wyman for making this site available; without it I would never even be going on this trip!
For a number of years I had no interest in contacting any former Brethren. Now, I consider many ex-peebs to be among my closest friends.
Just to clarify, my parents are Tony and Elsie MacLachlan of the Winnipeg EBs.
-Sheila Seesahai
Guest: Peter French
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Melbourne, Australia
Date & Comments: August 06, 2003
This seven day rule could be interesting. Weren't some shut up for seven days at one time for 'cleansing'? I can't check as I gave away my Concordances to a Roman Catholic Priest, dumped my ministry at the local refuse depot [and noted that the pollution index rose dramatically around that time], and my Bible - anything with "Darby" on it some how is not around any longer ...
Maybe we should not use the word 'Fundamentalist' with the peebs, and drop the 'Funda-' and '-ist' bits off? I have committed another mortal sin?? Someone here will write to me and tell me ... some people have too much spare time on their hands - especially people without names!
However, the thought process and reaction to 'issues' is very ingrained, or am I alone in this? Brother Francis should contribute and this point ...
I was working with an ex-Anglican Deacon this morning - a lovely lady with whom I will be in contact for some time. She was tossed out of the Church some years ago, and became 'ex-' because she was Gay. This is a current issue with the Anglicans, and the Uniting Church. We had an intersting discussion and it reinforced my view that until something affects me or my family, really any opinion is only theoretical.
The crazy thing was that I found myself referencing back to peeb dogma - some here will disagree and say 'you mean scripture?' Well, yes in a way, but the peeb version of it. Do others expereince this? I had to 'unhook' myself from this and endeavour to think clearly and without a border or boundary around the topic.
God made this person gay, so what are we supposed to do? Set them apart and await a Hitler version who God also created to wipe out all of the gays?
Is it a sin? Is the Bible literal and meant to be taken literally? If we go an about gays why don't we fully follow the Old Testament and stone people - maybe the extreme sects of Pakistan are right?
So how literal are the 11 commandments - the 11th being 'Thou shalt not be a peeb'? Avarice, borrowing your mates wife, killing people by causing them to commit suicide, not even sharing sewerage lines with the neighbour ... peebs obviously really don't follow them do they?
So, maybe the whole thing is a consipracy - we do know that the leaders don't live as they demand the cult rank and file to, so maybe it is a time for real reassessment for some of us?
I will genuinely welcome and help form any person that helps me 'unshackle' my peeb based instincts - expecially the ones that arise at times like this. I really marvel at the way that people like Dick and Backslider Stott have been able to realistically cross the road to the other side, and now view things realistically and objectively.
Maybe someone can help me - try to convince me that God is a coloured gay female, please give me time to adjust to that belief.
Feel free to use the above email address rather than start WW3 here!
Guest: bb
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: sydney, Australia
Date & Comments: August 07, 2003
To Kate T, Singleton
I wish your parents the very best and tell them to be strong as this behaviour is so typical. If the brethren can't get what they want they usually pull out some money to see if it will talk. You have to realise they are heavily brainwashed people.
They also judge you for how you look more so than what you do and are very racist when it comes to other colors and cultures.
Believe me, I know first hand
Guest: *suppressed by request*
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: London, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: August 07, 2003
Rather than inviting blasphemy on this site (Mr. French, Aug 6th), why not simply follow the example of God's Son and forgive the sinner while abhoring the sin? This seems to be the closest we can come to applying a WWJD (what would Jesus do?) in terms of a practising homosexual or lesbian. The Bible gives firm instructions as to the approach to use with those who refuse to stop sinning. It certainly does not include giving them office in a church - that can only be described as Desecration of the most terrible kind. It proves that God was not involved in the hearts of the majority of those who voted over there in USA this week. How sad.
Guest: Bro. Francis
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: California, United States
Date & Comments: August 07, 2003
The word "fundamentalist" should not be analyzed etymologically but rather understood in the historical context of its usage.
Fundamentalism was an American reaction against the "social gospel". The biggest name in fundamentalism was William Jennings Bryan who rose to very high levels in American politics. Bryan represented the creationist side in the Scopes "Monkey trial" of 1926. See the film "Inherit the Wind."
The "social gospel" was promoted by Rev. Walter Rauschenbusch, who was affiliated with the gradualist socialism of the Fabian Society in England.
The Fabians laid the foundation of the Labour Party. In England, the Fabians acquired features of the Christian Socialism of Maurice and others in the Church of England.
Bryan was above all a populist and appealed to the simple masses. The fundamentalists rejected the Social Gospel of Rauschenbusch and split American Protestantism in two.
Brethren don't have American intellectual ancestry. They derive from British Calvinism. Read the article elsewhere on this site about "Newman, Bulteel and Darby" to see the roots of Brethrenism (in all of its kinds) in the superheated Calvinism of Bulteel.
It is interesting to note too that Francis William Newman, the brother of Cardinal Newman who eventually became a freethinker while John Henry Newman gravitated to Romanism (and rose to become a Cardinal), was influenced by Darby.
Both the Newmans and Darby, all three of them, originated in the Anglican church.
Calling Brethren "fundamentalist" is not quite historically sound however meaningful. More historically accurate is "Calvinist."
Guest: Iain Gibb
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Grangemouth, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: August 08, 2003
I may seem to have a "bee in my bonnet" about this, but I cannot understand people who attempt to preach behind anonymity. There is a recent but by no means unique example dated August 7. I fully understand anonymity to protect the identity of some vulnerable person or a delicate situation such as someone trying to escape from the EBs.
However, I have to say to those who try to try to make a point anonymously, you are doing a dis-service to your point of view. "Suppressed by request" screams far louder than anything else you have to say.
Sorry to squander my weekly quota without contributing to "creation vs evolution", even though I am itching to respond to some of the points made by my friend Roger on Aug 3. (BTW, Tim, I liked your posting on Aug 5, but Roger Stott and John Stott are distinct people. Both can articulate their points of view cogently, but they are very different points of view!)
Love to all
Iain
Guest: Patrick Carlyle
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: Sydney, Australia
Date & Comments: August 08, 2003
Nameless of London is a little discriminatory - quite accusatory and typically peeb in response. These people are born this way - so take it up with your God if you have a problem. Where is the sin, and what is the sin?
Unfortunately for some the bible is not literal, else we would be stoning people, but then maybe nameless would be at the front of the line were that the case. The essence of the peeb message is that whatever they find in the bible is the limit (subject to interpretation that changes constantly). Some of us continue to prove that we are still peebs.
Some see the need of breaking free of that and see the bible for what it is - a collection of responses to the unknown, codified over time into legend and myth. It contains a few simple messages from a wandering sage (Jesus of Nazareth), but to get to the messages and the meaning, one has to strip away all the myth and legend that developed as soon as he was dead. The Jesus message is that love is greater than any weapon. The academic message is that all knowledge is provisional, subject to experiment.
Death is the end of life. There is no afterlife, no choir of angels, no lake of fire. If you would live forever, do something for your fellow man. Leave your mark. Be remembered as one who made the world a better place.
Guest: Wayne Kerr
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: London, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: August 08, 2003
To *suppressed by request* of *suppressed by request* August 07, 2003
I wish you would post your email address, I would like to communicate with you. You wrote "Rather than inviting blasphemy on this site ... the Bible gives firm instructions as to the approach to use with those who refuse to stop sinning. It certainly does not include giving them office in a church - that can only be described as Desecration of the most terrible kind. It proves that God was not involved in the hearts of the majority of those who voted over there in USA this week. How sad."
Congratulations, suppressed. I don't blame you for suppressing your email address because anyone who has posted here is used to getting 'hate mail' immediately afterwards.
Someone who wrote to me recently said (regarding postings in this guestbook) "I'm tired of boring old farts - who believe that they should have been chosen to write the bible."
This seems to fit you perfectly. I'm brave enough to include my email address - I encourage your contact.
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Canada
Date & Comments: August 08, 2003
I'm a little puzzled by these folks who say the bible [specifically the New Testament] shouldn't be taken literally - exactly what shouldn't we take literally? The injunction to feed the poor, or take care of the widows and orphans? To be a father to the fatherless? To bind up the broken hearted, or visit the sick and elderly?
It comes to mind that in the parable of the "Good Samaritin" the Priest and the Levite "didn't believe the bible should be taken literally".
I wonder why the Lord said "go and do thou likewise"?
Guest: Andy Moulding
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Bournemouth, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: August 08, 2003
Left in 1979, I would welcome any contact from Ex-Bretheren.
Guest: Roger Stott
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Exeter, Devon, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: August 10, 2003
pmclarke is a little puzzled that anyone should think that the New Testament should not be taken literally. Is he serious? I don't recall meeting any one-eyed or one handed christians (does that mean that none of your eyes or hands have offended you? - you set a very high standard of moral attainment indeed!) And do you hate your father and mother and various other relatives? (You cannot be a disciple of Jesus otherwise). And where are all these christians queuing up to sell everything they own so that they can give the money to the poor? And how many of the precepts of the Sermon on the Mount can you tick off as being achieved hour by hour?
It is in the nature of any religion that it comes at complex matters through parable and metaphor and allegory. What I have called 'the clunking literalism of the fundamentalist' kills it stone dead. When Jesus met a literalist he said to him 'the wind blows where it wants to and you don't have any idea where it comes from or where it goes to - that's what spirituality is like'.
Read Karen Armstrong in Saturday's Guardian www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1015273,00.html and start to get some sense of the difference between the actual and the mythic. It could be a great help to you.
Roger Stott
Guest: Eleanor Morton
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Adelaide, Australia
Date & Comments: August 10, 2003
What happened to no further education after completing high school and no using computers?
I am currently studying a TAFE (Tertiary and Further Education) course which is held at Douglas Mawson Institute of Technology.
Last week I attended a tutorial class and the first thing I see is a middle-aged "sister" with a scarf on sitting at a computer typing. Beside her at another computer also typing is another somewhat younger peeb. Like we said 9 years ago when we left there is no consistency in the system. Only hypocrisy and compromise. It would seem nothing has changed at all despite what they say!
Guest: Chris Harwood
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Buckhurst Hill, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: August 11, 2003
A few correspondents have recently dismissed the Bible on the grounds that it cannot be taken literally in its entirety (my summary). The Word of God can only be grasped with the aid of the Holy Spirit, without which it does appear as a collection of ‘lovely stories’, ‘scary stories’, ‘disgusting stories’ and quite a lot of nonsense! For someone to understand it (something I suspect is not fully possible this side of eternity) one has to become soaked in its ‘look-and-feel’ to try and use a human phrase.
To determine God’s will on an issue one often has to do the equivalent of writing the question on glass and holding it over one’s understanding, moving it around until a match occurs (spooky non-scientific language from an engineer here!). The result is fine for an individual but is impossible to impose on other people except through persuasion, but that’s the way God primarily works - with individuals.
On the subject of stoning, it is important to realize that the Bible changes tack. It starts with Plan A (perfect bar Satan’s existence) to Plan B (the sacrificial system and 10 commandments with stoning etc.) on to Plan C (based on repentance and forgiveness). Jesus refused to support stoning for the woman caught in adultery (apparently the Romans wouldn’t have allowed it anyway but Jesus wasn’t swayed on important issues by them) but He DID tell her to change her behaviour!
On the subject of sexuality, Christians often fall into the trap of viewing homosexual activity as abhorrent while almost turning a blind eye to fornication and adultery.
As an elder in a small church fellowship, I have experienced the extensive harm caused by overlooking persistent wrong-doing within the congregation and it is vital that leaders are chosen and maintained to a high standard as the Bible says.
Guest: John Bunning
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: United States
Date & Comments: August 11, 2003
Please note my new e-mail address: jonbun@verizon.net
Effective date is August 11, 2003. Love in Him. JB
Guest: Tim Twinam
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Stowe, VT, United States
Date & Comments: August 11, 2003
It is a common trait among those who try to trip Christians, or who attempt to mock their faith, to point to specific scriptures, turn up the 'Guilt-Dial' and ask: "Well? How do YOU measure up?". Those who experience this know the uncomfortable sensation that it can produce. Simon Peter was reduced to tears when the spotlight fell on him. Those who tried it with Jesus Christ however, found that reflected light can shine twice as bright!
Similar to the Biblical scribes and Pharisees, many denominations and Christian individuals have created petty sets of rules above and beyond Biblical law - The EB's score higher than most there! That is legalism. Legalism usually appears in one of two forms — Justification and Sanctification. The legalistic view of Justification says: “I must add to Christ’s redemptive work on the cross in order for God to accept me into His family.” This exalts the sinful human ego to the sinless level of Christ. The legalistic view of Sanctification says: “I must do certain things and not do others so God and my peers will think better of me.”
Both focus on Self — on 'looking good' rather than obeying Christ regardless of what others may think. It simply leads to the petty preoccupation with rules and regulations ... and making laundry lists of what you can and cannot do. Petty people tend to be ugly people — they have lost their vision and turned their eyes away from what matters ... focusing instead on what doesn’t matter, resulting in an obsession with the insignificant.
As we know too well, pettiness has broken homes, divided church families, and become a malignant disease in the body of Christ.
Religious claptrap? No. This is the essence of the difference between being Literal and just Living. There isn't a list of laws and rules anymore. We're not under law, we're under grace! Those Christians who have truly met the Man from Galilee and have experienced His resurrection power are not now enslaved to a Rule Book ... this is why it's called the Good News! We're Free! Gods' laws are no longer on stone or parchment, they're engraved on our hearts. Get it? It's Fundamental!
Smiles,
-Tim
PS Thank you to those who wrote informing me of my Name error last week. It's an 'age thing' - and of course I'm relieved that it turned out to be a 'Dear Roger' letter rather than the frequently sad alternative.
Guest: Cindy White
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Vancouver, WA, United States
Date & Comments: August 12, 2003
In response to Kate T., August 4th.
It's heartening to know your parents have the courage to speak up. I hope they recognize many Exclusive Brethren members are loving, caring, kind people. It's the bully tactics of their official "System" and "leaders' that angers me. Who knows, the people seeking to make changes to your parent's neighborhood may have been told to do so or else face being kicked out. I wish your parents well in speaking up to ensure a fully-informed decision is made by their elected and government officials. Please tell them not to forget the power of the press. Such advice was given to me by a Grand Jury foreman many years ago. He was right. Hard, undeniable facts presented to the press from "concerned citizens" often create great media attention.
Other comments:
To add to my weekly entry allowance - I read all the entries about the Bible's validity, as we know it in 2003. It befuddles me that such intelligent people can believe every word in the translation of their moment or Biblical version.
I do read the Bible, when I feel a need to. I believe it carries "general" messages. Much based on history, much altered and edited since first written. In my opinion, very little, maybe none is verbatim. The essence of the messages are clear, are told well, but should not be used, abused or microscopically analyzed word by word. Especially not out of context.
Don't you remember a childhood game where kiddos sat in a circle, one told a story and it was passed on through whispers to the next kid, then the next until it came back to the original storyteller? Invariably, the tale had become adulterated. Sometimes somewhat close to the original but never absolutely correct, most often totally twisted and way off base.
I believe and honor the "themes" of our present-day Bible(s). Right is right, wrong is wrong for us as physical individuals, as we perceive such within bounds of the law of the land and our own consciences. Love, caring, helping and understanding of all mankind, womankind and homosexuals is always right and good. (BTW, I have never known a homosexual who chose or chooses to be "different". Each has told me they did not seek identity confusion and do not know why they feel as they do. Not by choice with all inherent societal dilemmas. They just are the way they are.)
Love to all,
Cynthia White
Guest: Judith Perfect
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Stratford-upon-Avon, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: August 12, 2003
Added 13 August 2003
I asked on the 'Guestbook' if anyone new where I could find a hymn. I have
had so many replies that I need everyone to know that I now have the necessary
information.
--Judith
Please can anyone help me? I was listening to the programme 'My Favourite Hymns' on Sunday morning: (John Stapleton talking to Jenny (horse Trainer) Pitman.)
There was a hymn that she had obviously chosen, neither the title of the Hymn or the name of the tune was mentioned. The hymn went like this:-
I stand all amazed at the love Jesus offers me,
Confused at the grace that so fully He proffers me,
I tremble to know that for me he was crucified,
That for me, a sinner, He suffered, He bled and died.Chorus: Oh, it is wonderful that He should care for me,enough to die for me
Oh, it is wonderful, wonderful to me.
There are two more verses, but I would go well over the one hundred words if I wrote those as well. If anybody does recognize it I would love to hear from you on the above email address
Thank you
Judith.
Guest: Gavin Mytton
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Newcastle, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: August 13, 2003
Hello to any one that knows me. As you can see I have left my email address so drop me a line. I am the youngest son of Roger Mytton, Newcastle. I am 24 and have been in and out of the bretheren a few times. I would love to talk to anyone that may know me or know someone with a link.
Guest: John
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: Belfast, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: August 14, 2003
I have never encountered any EBs in Northern Ireland - does anyone know if they exist here, if so, how many are there, and where are their meetings? There are dozens of "open" Brethren assemblies in NI (I have attended some of their gospel missions), but I don't know of any EB groups.
Thanks
John
Guest: Jenny Dowding (McMullan)
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Belfast...now Gloucester, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: August 14, 2003
To John. There certainly are Peebs in N Ireland. I have just returned from my "forgiveness visit" to my family in Belfast. They are all living in the Newtownabbey area of Belfast. It was very strange to meet up with my family after 23 yrs and sad that we have all lost out on so much together. My daughter, who does not remember them at all, couldn't get her head around the reality that if they had been told that the visit was off, even whilst they were gettig into the car to come, that they would not have met up with us. As to the visit, their ultimate goal was obviously to get me back (fat chance!!). I went to see my Mum and Dad, who are elderly, and my family, as this might be my only chance ever. I did come away glad that I had gone, but there is nothing for me to build on with them.
Even better was to meet up with other ex peebs who I have met up with, and with whom - thanks to this site - we can build a sense of past, present and belonging again. It had helped me to lay away a few of the ghosts of the past and be able to actually look at my past without wanting to weep bitterly. I am still looking for anyone who remembers me from Belfast as Jennifer McMullan.
Many, many thanks to Dick for this site.
Guest: Suppressed by request, respond via Dick Wyman
Guest E-mail:
City, Country:
Date & Comments: August 16, 2003
Have been reading Dick's "Family Business" article - what Bruce and John Hales Snr engineered in the 1965 Commerce era is apparently being replayed on a much vaster scale in 2003. One wonders why older and experienced EB's who endured the rigors and aftermath of that "system" don't wake up!
Apparently wealthy Aussies are financially backing many of these new EB business ventures cropping up across the USA/Canada. So what has happened to the millions of dollars of brethren money that became part of the Jim Symington "estate" and was bestowed upon his sons. As Ron Fawkes and many others have personally witnessed (see "Correspondence" - Errata 1999, 5th Dec. 1999), Symington spent vast sums of his "levitical giving" on land and equipment purchases to enrich the family fortunes. Is this "easy money" now being used to further BDH's cause???......
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Canada
Date & Comments: August 16, 2003
What surprises me is how the leaders have been able to amass the wealth they have without attracting attention from the various tax authorities.
Just for starters, you are required to report any significant amount of cash you are bringing across a border. Failure to do so is a felony
When you file your tax return you sign that you have declared ALL income.
I know for a fact cash is couriered - I did it myself back in the late 60's. I was given an envelope with instructions on who to give it to. I was not told the amount. If all their business is in cash - no cheques - it would be dificult to trace.
But the pb's seem to have the idea they are above the law anyway. I personally heard statements made in meetings reguarding possible tax department investigations, and the word was to "tell them nothing."
That was well over 30 years ago, and I have no reason to believe anything has changed.
Guest: Gerard Rayment
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Southend-on-Sea, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: August 17, 2003
About the financial perks of peeb leadership.
I've heard JT quoted as saying "...I've come to it that, if I look after God's interests, he will look after mine."
I was a totally loyal, unquestioning peeb. But a tiny voice, somewhere in the back of my mind, did tell me that this was a worrying insight into the guy's motives.
Guest: *suppressed by request*
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: United Kingdom
Date & Comments: August 17, 2003
Concerned that this once fine site is now being run on Brethren lines. Only one guestbook entry a week? Of my last two enties, the first was substantially changed, and the second did not even appear? So, if I saw Brucie dead in my street this week, I couldn't even report it? Same sort of petty rules as no sideburns, linked drains and only one drink per night!
We were featured in the News of the World March 23 2003, 'couple hunted by cult priests'. Were it not for the farcical invasion of Iraq, it would have been an even more embarrassing double page spread, in the immediate aftermath of BBC 'Everyman'.
Repression is obviously not just happening in the Brethren. I believe that Dick knows that we are genuine, and have had to move hundreds of miles away and sell our business, in an effort to retain both our sanity and safety, after leaving the EBs. Hence the anonymity, before any bright sparks pass comment! If we are unable to expose issues here, that could help bring them down, we must be seen to be condoning their behaviour. God bless all you once a weekers!
Guest: Cynthia White
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Vancouver, Washington, United States
Date & Comments: August 18, 2003
Re: Guest: *suppressed by request*
Date & Comments: August 17, 2003
In great, I agree with you regarding frustration of a one-posting per week limitation to express your thoughts or report pertinent comments on this site. It does bring back past feelings and realities of structured Peeb times.
However, also in great, I know the inordinate amount of time expended to efficiently run a successful website constantly in need of updating.
This site was started and has been maintained as a loving, concerned, voluntary service by Dick Wyman since 1997. Now, it appears Dick has other urgent priorities at this time in his life. Understandably. He does have a wife, children and a job to attend to. Plus some health problems and recent surgeries.
What could/should be done to alleviate Dick's pressure-level and make this site Constant Comment accessible? I do not know the answer. It's his baby.
Dick, thanks for all you've done and continue to do as best you can.
Cindy
Proud to be --------#1 Guest Book entry - April, 1997
Guest: Charles Turner
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: London, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: August 18, 2003
To suppressed by request August 17th.
Point 1. Dick runs this site for free - if you hadn't noticed. I imagine this has cost him considerable expense both in time and money.
Point 2. Dick set up the guest book as a guest book not an internet chat room. Many of his more subtle request for keeping messages short were ignored. Some people were contributing several times a week when they could have e-mailed people privately. Some people that come on this site would prefer to see well articulated contributions, that have been thought through, rather than 'chat room' ramblings. This is even more important when someone finds this site for the first time (and realises they are not alone) and trawls through the guest book for the first time.
Point 3. Are you sure that your e-mails have been changed? I have submitted many and they have always been produced word for word.
Point 4. This site is not run along brethren lines at all. It includes entries of all types both pro and con the brethen.
Are you a member of the company employed by the brethren to monitor this site and thought you would throw in a few 'divisive' thoughts.
In my humble opinion, well done to Dick. He has bought many old friend together, helped in the healing process and who knows, could have been one of the reasons why the senior echelons of the brethren realised they needed to have a 'review'.
Guest: Rachel
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: Bentley, Australia
Date & Comments: August 20, 2003
Hi,
As an ex peeb (family left when I was 3) I find it offenseve that people try to convert us to there form of Christianity. I am an agonstic freethinker now and really find it laughable that people have replaced one cult for another. Are we that desperate to believe in an afterlife? Believe what you like but don't push your beliefs into others who read this.
Thanks.
Guest: *suppressed by request*
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: Manchester, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: August 20, 2003
Guest: anonymous
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: Melbourne, Australia
Date & Comments: August 21, 2003
THIS SAYS IT ALL... A visit from a daughter whom the Mother (ex-b.) had not seen in 10 years. Daughter and son-in-law and children arrive, and Mum is really looking forward to the 'reunion'. HOWEVER... is greeted by the opening sentence...
'CAN'T HUG OR KISS YOU MUM, WE MUST MAINTAIN SEPERATION'... please... how double can you get? Can visit, but can't touch!!! What is 'separation' these days I ask?
Guest: Alan and Noeleen Walker
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Gisborne, New Zealand
Date & Comments: August 23, 2003
Left 1972 from Dunedin
Guest: Rod Wilkins
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Brisbane, Australia
Date & Comments: August 23, 2003
FEEB-FORUM TURNS FIVE NEXT MONTH!
On 1 September Feeb-forum celebrates its fifth anniversary. Most of you will know that Feeb-forum is hosted by Jill Mytton and is run as an email group for those who were once EBs or were raised as EBs. It consists of a group of people who sometimes struggle with the past, and the current effect of having been in the cult. (Details are to be found on this website).
The forum was launched on 1 September 1998 and has been a cyber-home to many ex-EBs over the past five years. Whilst many subscribers have been there since inception, others have come and gone over the years.
If you are a former member of Feeb-forum and would like to send a message to Jill Mytton and current members of Feeb-forum in honour of this fifth anniversary milestone, please send it to me and I will forward it on to the group.
I look forward to hearing from you. Many thanks and best regards, Rod Wilkins.
Guest: Jill Mytton
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Beckenham, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: August 23, 2003
Re feeb (Family of Ex Exclusive Brethren) it is indeed nearly our 5th birthday and here is what may be the first email sent (unless someone can find an earlier one??) -
From: Self
To: xxxxxxx
Subject: Cindy testing
Date: Tue, 1 Sep 1998 23:09:11
Hi folks this is just to test if Cindy is on line - she shouldn't be
cos I havn't been asked for approval!!
Jill
not exactly earth shattering but since then we have had some great times. To echo Rod, yes we would all love to hear from former members. If you want to rejoin just to say hello or to stay longer then let me know.
Best wishes to you all
Jill
Guest: Bufo marinus
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: August 24, 2003
Happy FITH, feeb!
Guest: Alistair Deayton
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Paisley, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: August 24, 2003
To Rachel of Bentley, Australia.
I would hardly call Christianity anoother cult.
I share my faith because of the command of my master,Jesus, "Go and make disciples of all nations". And because the joy of knowing Jesus as Saviour and friend is so great. God is wonderful. He created a wonderful, beautiful world and sent his son to earth to become a human being and die a horrible death, so that by that death all my sins can be washed away.
I am as much against the pushing of religious viewpoints and of denominations or churches as you are. But to know the joy of sins forgiven, and to have a personal relationship with Jesus, that is so wonderful that I cannot but share it.
Guest: Sara
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Ontario, Canada
Date & Comments: August 24, 2003
I am not an ex-PB, but my mother and two of my uncles are. They have all become successful people in their own rights after leaving the church. The three of them and their families are a very close knit family. We, and one of my uncles, live in the same town as the rest of my family that are still PBs.
Recently, we were given the opportunity to buy my grandparents' home, the home that my mom grew up in. This house is on the same street that they are currently residing.
It was wonderful, because after more than 30 years of having brief contact in passing, my family was talking to each other again. The relationship is still not a social one, but my grandparents finally got to meet their three granddaughters that are all over the age of 21 and almost on to having their own family.
I know that we are very lucky to have this chance, but I'm sorry that it took a house and an ailing father in order for this to happen.
Guest: Adrian Sloan
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Leeds, England
Date & Comments: August 25, 2003
Please note new address (in Names section).
I stirred up quite a hornet's nest with my comment on evolution (some time ago!). The more I think about it, the more incredible I find the concept that all this world arose by chance to be. My reaction in watching the Wildlife on 1 programmes on BBC1 was what a great God we have to implant such marvellous mechanisms into his creatures.
Guest: Sara Kennedy
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Burlington, ON, Canada
Date & Comments: August 25, 2003
I just want to let all the friends and family of (William) Gordon Hewines know that he passed away peacefully this evening. He will be greatly missed by all that knew him. He is survived by his wife, Ruth (Blain), his four children, Cameron, Calvin, Valerie and Gary as well as 5 grandchildren.
If anyone would like any messages to be passed on to any member of his family, please write to the e-mail message above. A mailing address can be obtained by e-mailing me.
I never really knew my grandfather, but a great legacy has been passed on through the generations.
Guest: James
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Melbourne, Australia
Date & Comments: August 26, 2003
One thing about the Exclusive Brethren.....they know how to get an electric guitar hootin`! Woohooooooo
Guest: Laurie Twinam
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Sevenoaks, Kent, GBR, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: August 27, 2003
One of the striking themes of the Gospels is the gentleness shown by Jesus to the casualties He came across. – not only to the lame and blind but also to people damaged by their experiences. The Good Samaritan story is a fine illustration of this.
Surely that should challenge us as we interchange on this website. Are we being sufficiently gentle and caring – not only to those who have left the Jims, but also to those who are still held captive? Can we impart an impression of Jesus Christ, especially to those seeking a true Christianity, and convince them that we have found (in many different ways) a greater closeness to the Lord since leaving the Jims? Or may it be that our attitudes and comments discourage and confuse them?
Enjoy your liberty and give God thanks for it! But there are some hurting people around who urgently need first aid, gentle nursing, and genuine Christian love.
Guest: John Mathison
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Langley, Canada
Date & Comments: August 27, 2003
Just a quick update to change my email address
Guest: George Mair
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Maidenhead Berkshire, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: August 27, 2003
Good to hear that your limbs are being strengthened Dick.
I was, at first, saddened to learn from others, that despite my contributions to your site, that for a while, I was suspected of being "an insider" or "an informer". It has thrust upon me how really evil the Brethren have been over the years. I hope Bruce has got his eavesdroppers working. How much are they being paid I wonder?
Dick, since I first made a contribution to your site, I have been open and honest and did not hide behind any nom-de-plume - or even remain anonymous come to that! I think it is sad that anyone who has something to say, that they should seek to hide behind the cloak of anonimity - with few exceptions. (I quite well understand those protecting sensitive situations).
We all agree that everyone has a right to free speech. There is no question about that. But with every right, we also have a responsibility.
To enter into a debate whilst remaining anonymous is irresponsible, and speaking as one who reads this site on a regular basis, let me say that I simply and totally ignore anonymous contributions.
Have I got to 100 words in one week? I told you before Dick, I might be able to spell, but I can't count.
Guest: Peter French
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Melbourne, Australia
Date & Comments: August 28, 2003
Well - isn't it nice to not have to miss out on the preachings since we have left the peebs! We have heard from Brother Deayton, and now from Brother Twinham, and one more to come? I can't wait!
The preachers here really push their point quite hard, and while there is the recongition of the right to free speach, their 'words' always ever so politely and in such a 'christian way' really attack those who don't think as they do.
People don't come here to be preached AT - OK? It is really a question of whether you truly believe what you say from the exercise of a free mind, or rather from a revision of the indonctrination of the peebs - leaving out the bits you don't agree with.
Christianity, IF it is anything - is a way of life, not a system of speeches. A venture into Eastern religions would do a few here some good ... and a realisation that the bible and the koran and other 'holy' books are good novels and works of fiction, but the bible barely passes the censor ...
Guest: Les Paul
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Worcs, England
Date & Comments: August 28, 2003
Electric guitar hootin' James?
They have come on a bit then. They were frowned on in the early 70s before I got slung out. Acoustics were allowed as long as all you wanted to do was plays Seekers songs. Yippee, I don't think.
What I want to know is how they play all these songs if they are not supposed to have heard them?
Guest: Deane Butcher
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Adelaide, Australia
Date & Comments: August 29, 2003
Very well said Peter,
Millions of christians have to tell you they're christians... because you'd have no idea judging by their actions.
I think most of them have a superiority complex similar to what predominates in the e.b.'s
Guest: Cindy White
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: South Montesano, WA, United States
Date & Comments: August 29, 2003
A personal, publicly-posted note to Jill Mytton, Sis Jillsy, Queen Mum of FEEB:
My sincere thanks to you for your tenacity and selfless efforts. You have persevered to provide a safe haven, as needed, for those haunted and hurt by the realities of connections with the official Exclusive Brethren System and its' followers.
With a great deal of love and respect,
Cindy... AKA - Cynthia Norrell, Christchurch, NZ, born 1946, severely damaged and yet a survivor of EX-B early 1960's pogroms.
To quote Franklin Delanor Roosevelt:
"I myself could scarcely believe that such things could happen in a twentieth century civilization"
Guest: Tim Twinam
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Stowe, VT, United States
Date & Comments: August 30, 2003
In looking back over five years of emails and Guestbook pages (Yeah, I'm a really sad person sometimes ... deal with it) I find myself astonished at the different ways our long or short sojourns with the Peebs has affected us. There are those who remain so angry, those who are hardened behind their obvious 'trespassers will be shot' defences, those who ignore the good and specialize in the bad, There are atheists, agnostics (even a very rare agonstic), High - Low - and probably some Medium Christians, those who still grieve behind pulled curtains, those who obsessively pull on their rose-tinted spectacles, and even those who seem (superficially) untouched and unharmed.
As some of us remember the work of Feeb Forum this weekend, I am happy to add my personal public thank you to a woman who helped me do two things. First, she helped me recognize that the anger, the grieving, the defences and the false pretences were probably symptoms of damage. She called that damage Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome. It was an eye-opener and placed many things into perspective. Second though, Jill shared her philosophy which, although vastly different from mine, taught me a level of tolerance for those who preferred to 'sit half-way up' rather than commit to being 'up' or 'down'. She taught me that it's OK to talk through the bannisters and to giggle and share with people in every possible direction. The Feeb Tolerance Law extended to letting all points of view be heard - a philosophy that is certainly followed on this web site.
So thank you Jill. For all our grumbling at each other over the years, there is and was a very real affection. We called it the Feeb Family - and although this risks giving you one of those 'knee tremblers', its almost as though we were once Brother and Sister ...
Grins,
Tim x
Guest: Susan Ewing Diener
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Lady Lake, FL, United States
Date & Comments: August 30, 2003
It has been a long time, that I have signed in.
A lot of things have happened. Jan. 23,2003 I had a preventive hysterectomy. I already had #2 stage cancer. Had 6 Chemo treatments, the last June 2. 2003. Am cancer free. There were lot of prayers for me. Am so glad I have THE LORD in my life.
I am retired now. Closed my business May 30, 2003.
Sold our house in June, and bought a house here in The Villages, June 30, 2003. I am just getting my strength back. Sure will be glad to hear from anyone who knows me.
Guest: Sophie
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: San Diego, CA, United States
Date & Comments: August 30, 2003
Hi all.
A quick quesiton in response to Dave's message: '... a Bill passed in court to enable organizations to be sued for their responsibilities in cases of depression and mental disturbances.' is this just an Australian bill, and does anyone know if anything like this is being proposed/exists in the UK courts?
Like everyone else, have been wondering WHY this reform has really started. I have heard a great deal from them as to the fact that 'they HAVE to put things right', alomst regardless of whether the recipetant wants them to, but was wondering whether anyone else has got any further as to what the true motive can be.
Love to one and all that knows me,
Sophie
Guest: Jill Mytton
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: Beckenham, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: August 31, 2003
Hello brother Tim and sister Cindy!!
Yes your postings did give me one of those knee trembling moments and a choked throat! – thank you … no really thank you. I actually needed it today more than you can know. My feeb family, (which will always in my mind include not only current members but also those who have moved on or who walk through the door sometimes to say hello), are and will always be a wonderful part of my life. It feels like a privilege to me to know you all.
Of course feeb would not have happened had it not been for Dick’s website and Dick’s website would not have happened had it not been for …… and so and so ..
I cannot take all the credit for the success of feeb though, because feeb would not have become what it is now had it not been for the wonderful people who have joined over the years. We worked out that we have had about 130 people on feeb over that time, with current membership usually standing at around 50. Many of those 130 have met each other in real life. I have been amazed at what Tim calls the ‘very real affection’ that has developed between such a diverse group of people and also the level of tolerance that has developed despite this diversity.
Tim’s reference to sitting ‘half way up’ comes of course from my favourite AA Milne poem ‘Halfway up the stairs’ – and so this is the stair where I will always stop.
(By the way – who IS Bufo Marinus who so kindly also wishes us a happy fith birthday?)
And Cindy my sister I too cannot believe that such things could happen in our 21st century – thank you for your never failing support, as one of the founder members of feeb you have always been there.
Jill