This page contains entries made beginning July 01, 2003.
These names and addresses are posted to enable people to contact friends and loved ones. Please do not exploit this information for commercial purposes.
Guest: Gerard Rayment
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Southern England
Date & Comments: July 01, 2003
Would like to let our friends here know that we got safely home from our safari in Kenya yesterday. Didn't get eaten by any large animals, and had no trouble from Osama bin Laden or his pals. Perhaps the Foreign Office should issue an advisory about the roads and driving out there tho.
Enjoyed almost exclusive use of the best hotels [and pools etc.] since there were hardly any other guests.
Suggest the peebs spend a few of their millions on following in our footsteps. Securing exclusive use of facilities [to avoid mingling with worldlies]would be no problem. They could also save the tourism industry from collapse - and hence ensure the survival of the Game Reserves and wildlife.
Fantastic holiday, got loads of pics, video and memories.
best wishes to all........Gerard
Guest: *suppressed by request*
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: England, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 04, 2003
Hi George & Iain, Being an exiled Scot I could not recall the island's correct name, which Iain kindly supplied. I also didn't know that about Hitler & Madagascar, very interesting comparison. Well being brought up in EB's I didn't know much about anything at all in the outside world. Never mind my Anthrax Island suggestion was just a lighthearted thought after all, it's just that a EB upbringing does give one the tendancy to think in extremes.
Being FREE on the other hand means I am now able to turn these thoughts into amusing ideas!! On a more serious note I remember there being something on the news recently about tests to see if the said island is safe again, anyone know the outcome? Depending on the results, my suggestion could be viable after all.
Guest: Vincent Cimmino
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Castellammare di Stabia - Italia, Italy
Date & Comments: July 04, 2003
We left the Jimmites in 1970, we kept subject to our Lord Jesus Christ and He provided to give us freedom from the "system". My father Giovanni fell asleep in the Lord on year 2000, we are on our own in Castellammare (my family, my mother and sister Emiddia). Would be glad to read of anyone who remembers of us.
Guest: Iain Gibb
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Grangemouth, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 04, 2003
To Sheilamac
Gruinard was quarantined for 48 years. It was officially declared 'safe' in 1990 but I do not know of anyone who has gone walking on it. I saw it when driving up the West Coast of Scotland. It looked like any ordinary island, but even seeing it gave me a shudder. I understand sheep graze on it under the watchful eye of the Ministry of Defence.
Cheers
Iain
Guest: Peter French
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Melbourne, Australia
Date & Comments: July 04, 2003
I read Adrian Sloan's recent letter of June 30, 2003 with some interest wherein he preferred to disagree with Richard Green's posting on 11 June re the Brethren and Evolution, where Richard quoted the Bishop of Oxford's view on Evolution as 'the modern Christian view'.
Mr Sloan then went on to point out that '...this is far from universally true: there is a significant body of Christian scientists, with no connection to EBs, who also hold to a literal 6-day creation...' and then gave us the web site
Dear Mr Sloan - are these biased 'scientists' your friends? Maybe you should introduce them to the peebs as they seem the share the same ability to see what they want to see, and twist what they want to twist to prove their point, which they also believe everyone should bow to.
There are none so blind as those who refuse to see! Maybe they and anyone else who still feels peeb-bound in their beliefs, should find a simple geologist and have a 5 minute discussion. I think that Mr Sloan's letter illustrates how ingrained the peeb teachings have become - it forbids us, it makes some of us still incapable of escaping the tunnel we had been programmed to view everything through.
This carryover is also why some keep defending the peebs on these pages. This 'belief' that some can't escape from that, maybe, just maybe, the peebs are right after all, and everyone else is going to hell, means that they need to publicly defend the peebs or disassociate themselves from valid anti-peeb criticism.
The peebs are Satanic, un- if not anti-Christian, and screwed up our heads and ability to think clearly. Until we accept that, we'll get nowhere in life and may as well kow-tow to their ridiculous rules and return to the bondage.
Guest: Chris Harwood
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Buckhurst Hill, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 04, 2003
To Peter French
Not everyone's heads were screwed up! The problem with Peebism is that we were taught to take on what we were told, and put under phsychological pressure to do so. What God wants (I believe) is for individuals to make their own minds up about what is right and what is wrong. That way each moves towards being a sociable being with reduced requirement for external laws/rules. Some people are, however, well brainy about various fields of knowledge (including Christianity) and so speak assertively about it. If you are not sure about what they say, or consider it unimportant, then put it to the back of your mind. What are your interests?
Guest: Graeme Hubbard
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: CHRISTCHURCH, New Zealand
Date & Comments: July 04, 2003
Just thought I'd say hi to everyone out there.
Been out for 30 years & only use this site to see who's around still.
Father's name was Doug Hubbard, Mother Nancy & Brother Peter
There's still a lot of people out there with a hangup over the peebs. Personally I've just got on with my life & haven't regretted anything I've done.
Thanks Dick for Making this site available
Guest: Richard Baker
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: July 05, 2003
Continue to be very interested in the activities of this cult, good work Dick
Guest: bb
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: sydney, Australia
Date & Comments: July 05, 2003
The PB schools are Government funded and because they dont do computer studies the government has threatened to take away the funding. To get around this they now study computers in theory only. How pathetic .
Guest: George Mair
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Maidenhead, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 05, 2003
Dear Dick,
People whom I never even knew existed have made contact with me through your site. Thanks for all this, and with the "refreshed" memories they have prompted, these forgotten memories in turn have triggered one or two other significant events in my life.
I have discovered that my Uncle, now in his 90's I understand, is an active Christian ("Kelly-Lowe-Continental" brethren,) living in North America, and is at present on a preaching tour of Central & Eastern Europe. When I was but a mere lad of 11, with my parents we visited Uncle Neil (and my late Aunt) in London. He introduced me to the delights of knickerbocker glories (can't remember what they are called in the States). London's famous Lyons Corner House's - alas, now all gone - were the only place in the UK where you could get one! You were served by waitresses in back with white aprons and what I thought was a tiara. Looking back, it was just a little cotton white frilly "hat" for want of a better word. In retrospect, Uncle Neil was one of my role models. He wasn't to know, nor was I, but that evening, as I was gobbling my knocker-bocker glory (NO, it's not what some people think if they have never heard of it before) I heard live music from real musicians. Neil wasn't to know that that instilled in me a love of music and live music - something that I didn't realise until decades later.
My Hero Neil was educating me. He also took me upstairs on a London bus. Whilst in the Brethren, we were forbidden to go on the top deck (which was where smoking was allowed until the 1990's), because the smoke was created by smoking-sinners! He also took me to Speaker's Corner in London's Hyde Park.
Twenty years later, when I came to live in London, I frequented Speaker's Corner, and learned so much about the art of oratory, how hecklers were handled, and how to silence critics. I distinctly recall heckling a group of 3 persons about something or other - the subject has long gone from my mind. I engaged them in debate, and the three of them took turns in trying to defeat my argument. Eventually, one of them sprang a surprise - he asked me "who was your tutor?" Having been brought up in the EB's, my answer was "JND, FER, CAC, JT, JTjr, etc., and astonishingly they picked up their soap boxes without another word and disappeared from Hyde Park. I was immediately surrounded by a few people who were absolutely astonished that I could silence 3 well-known regulars at Speaker's Corner with the initials of half-a-dozen folk! All I had done was simply use one scripture against another to negate their points. "What did you say to them?", "Who are you?" and lots of other questions came fast and furious. I took the vacant "plot" and told them of my experience. They were astonished to learn that a group of people calling themselves Christians could do what they did to their own flesh and blood. They were astonished that I could still quote scripture and verse. Frankly, so was I, because by then I had became an agnostic. (I could relate what happened after that when we repaired to a pub, but will spare you the details. I did tell you I would digress!)
Little did I know that this experience, would stand me in good stead another 20 years along the road of life. For 9 years I was elected as a councillor in The Royal Borough of Windsor & Maidenhead, being chairman of one or more committees for 8 of them, and for 5 years was returned as the Councillor on The Royal County of Berkshire, again being a chairman of one thing or another for 4 of these years.... Just imagine: a wee boy from the banks of the River Clyde, now represented an area - probably the most beautiful stretch of the banks of the River Thames! (For my American friends, maybe it's worth explaining here that, in terms of population, an English Borough Council is approximately the same head of population as an American County, and the average English County is the same as an average State.)
In the mid-'90's, I had the honour to represent The Royal County of Berkshire in Krakow by being among the entourage of the Queen and Prince Philip when they visited that beautiful city during their State Visit to Poland. There is only ever one "State Visit" by any Head of State to another - other visits are "private visits", although it has been known for the Queen to entertain other Heads of State during private visits, and vice-versa.
Being Chairman of Cultural (Libraries, Museums, etc.,) Matters in Berkshire, I had been asked by the authorities in Poland if there was anything within their and my remit that I would wish to see and experience. Museums, Art Galleries, a Renaissance Castle and the Opera House were amongst my desires. The opera was in Polish -about a Grandfather Clock - and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I was asked later if I had understood it, not knowing the language. I was astonished - I don't speak any other language than English - but I love Don Giovanni, The Marriage of Figaro, the Barber of Seville and a host of others. Why shouldn't I have enjoyed a Opera in Polish?
One of the five museums I had requested was Auswitch. Auswitch is the name known to everyone in the universe, but how many people know that there were 3 camps and 40 sub-camps? To my mind, initially Auswitch Main Camp was simply a Concentration Camp. Auswitch 2 (Birkenau) was an extermination camp. Quite a different thing.
Two are open to the public as a museum - or is it a memorial - to the Gypsies, the homosexuals, the Jews, and the cream of Polish intelligentia. How many people know that the first 1000 persons "experimented" on by the Nazi's for the process of elimination were Catholic Priests (leaders of minds), Polish lecturers (influencers of opinion) and German homosexuals? (The symbol of gays nowadays is the pink triangle. Did readers of this site know that that was the canvass badge they wore to identify them in Auswitch, just as the well publicised yellow "star of David" was for the Jews? Gypsies had a green triangle I think, political prisoners had another colour. I think there were about 8 or 9 different coloured triangles to identify different types of prisoners. I am also 99% sure that only in Auswitch were the prisoners tattooed with a number on the forearm. If any knows differently, I'd be grateful if I need correction.)
The main camp, famous for it iron archway "ARBET MACHEN FRIE" ("Work Makes Freedom"), consists of dozens of stone built 4-storey high barracks, built for the Polish Army in the first world war. It was in the hospital here that Joseph Mengele "experimented" on twins and did other unspeakable things. I highly recommend interested people to look at the Official Web Site: http://www.auschwitz-muzeum.oswiecim.pl - choose the English version offered on page 1! Follow all highlights in the blue leads offered and you'll get the full picture. Everyone in the world should visit this site, on-line and physically.
But I digress: After the first experimentation of these 1000 martyr's - for they were nothing less - the building of a further 5 crematoria was started in the second Auswitch camp - known and feared as Auswitch Birkenau (Camp 2). It is this camp that many will imagine as having the railway line built through the watchtower arch. I have BEEN in that watchtower above the arch. I have LOOKED through those window panes where the SS stood watch over other human beings. I have WALKED the mile long railway line INSIDE the camp. I have VISITED the remains of the crematoria. I have BEEN in one of the "sheds" these people were packed into. I have SEEN the communal latrines they had to endure. I have BEEN in a gas chamber. I have SEEN the inside of the one remaining crematorium in Auswitch Main Camp, and its "assembly line" design. The later ones were more "assembly-line streamlined".
The Scots poet Robert Burns gave to the world the expression: "man's inhumanity to man". Never was such a line more appropriate than anything I have ever read, heard or seen written. This visit changed my life, and other than sharing this with my wife, this is probably the first time I have been able to write what I have just written. There is so much MORE that I saw there that I could not put into this contribution, so horrific were the things I saw. I will go again. It was a second visit for a colleague, who said he learned and understood more the second time. The first time had been just too much evil to take in.
On a recent visit to the USA, I visited several museums. I met the curator of one who asked me "Of all the museums in the world you have seen which one had impressed you most" I suspect she was hoping that I would say hers was. I choked as I said it, but you've got there ahead of me. Unquestionably. But she saw my reaction, and genuinely said simply "I'm glad I asked you that question." How right she was.
To my mind, all these years later, there is something inherently evil in all extremists. Whether they be extremist Christians, extremist Muslims, extremist Jews, extremist Hindus, extremist Sikhs, extremist Tories, extremist Socialists, extremist Racialists, extremist Brethren, in the US of A, extremist Republicans and extremist Democrats. No. silly me, a true democrat cannot possibly be an extremist by the very nature of the word!. Or am I being extremist in myself?
One thing still exists though. Extremist Exclusive Brethren. Best of Intent but Evil in Execution.
C211 Listen just once in your life. You are in the same category - whether you like being told it or not.
Many thanks Dick, and kindest regards,
PS Many of my friends and acquaintances have said that I should write my memoirs from those days to now, and I was seriously planning to do so. I knew dozens who had the same or similar experiences that I had, so I knew my experiences were not unique, but it is only after reading your site, that I knew there must by 300 families contributing in one way or another - although I haven't counted them. I have ordered "Shut up Sarah" and "Don't call me Sister". And those are only the ones that I have learned about from your site. I didn't know about it until the BBC broadcast earlier this year. I've now given up on the idea of the memoirs, much to the annoyance of my daughters!
Guest: Chris Jones
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Liverpool (Previously Johannesburg & London), United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 06, 2003
As a geologist I cannot ignore the comments made by some correspondents concerning evolution. The EBs and some other fundamentalist Christian groups believe, amongst other things, that the earth and all life on it was created by God around 6 thousand years ago, then there was Noah's flood. I presume that they view evolution as a threat which would undermine their religious convictions and traditions. It reminds me of some rather daft, but entertaining English humour, "The Goodies", which was screened on British TV in the 1970s. In one episode, they interviewed a man who claimed to have written all of Shakespeare's plays. The question was asked, "How do you explain that Shakespeare's plays were being performed 400 years before you were born?" to which he replied, "This is where my argument falls down, I hoped you were not going to ask me that". There are plenty of creationist websites where equally ludicrous views are put forward. Sadly, however, these websites were not put there as a joke. There is more direct evidence about the last 4.5 billion years of earth history than there is about a recent historical event, such as the Second World War. It would be less bizarre to state that the Second World War never took place than to disregard the fact of evolution. Despite my association with the Exclusives (I spent the first 16 years of my life in it), I am still baffled how otherwise thinking people can allow religious teaching to blind and rob themselves of reason.
Chris Jones FGS
Chartered Geologist
Guest: Rachel Moss
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: Oxfordshire, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 06, 2003
Thankyou 'Uncle' George Mair for your words of wisdom!! I guess that although 99% of the time I am happier with my life that I have ever been, there will always be times when I miss my Mum just as I am sure others who read this site miss their families.
It took me a long time to accept that I would not see my family again and I used to drive past my mum's house just to catch a glimpse of her, she lived in the same town as me before she was told to move as there were not enough brethren left to keep our local meeting going - she quite happily moved away from a lovely house in a town she had lived in for many years simply because she was told to do so!!
I still have not heard since the first letter I got and I find it hard to believe that people can be so cruel in playing around with emotions like they do, My three little girls will not miss out on anything by not meeting their grandmother but I suppose what hurts is that I know how much she would love to see them if only she could.
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: victoria, Canada
Date & Comments: July 06, 2003
The scriptures says''in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth'' It doesn;t tell us WHEN he created it- nor HOW he created it.Interestingly enough, even those who somehow nothing became something by the process of evolution- a concept beyond me, still use the term''creation''
When we go beyond scripture,or begin to make assumptions, we quickly open the door for unsubstantiated theories-such as the pb teaching that radios are wrong because they have no wires and the devil was the pronce and power of the air- the reason they initially opposed air travel.
An interesting question to those who deny any intelligent process behind ''creation'' is since we measure everything by the speed of light- what was there before light? Did time exist before light?Our finite minds cannot go beyond that wall.
I suggest the biblical explanation of eternity is the answear- and we are left with what the ancients believed-''In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth''....
Guest: Lucas, Eileen (nee Cook)
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Date & Comments: July 06, 2003
Left 1961. Was local at Horley, Surrey, England.
Guest: Anon EX - EB
Guest E-mail:
City, Country:
Date & Comments: July 06, 2003
So it seems we have amongst the contributors to this site, certain learned gentlemen (Messrs. Peter French and Chris Jones) who are prepared to stick their necks out in support of evolution. Perhaps if they are willing to enter into more detailed discussion, Dick might provide a separate page (perhaps the guest book is not the place for this) where we can watch a debate unfold between “creation” advocates and the “evolution” camp. As usual, it is all too easy to discount other people’s beliefs without having my own beliefs tested.
Meanwhile I trust that Chris (and Peter) have more “in depth” knowledge of geology than they do of the Exclusive Brethren. The Exclusive Brethren NEVER EVER taught a young earth doctrine. Many of them do not know what they believe, but the official belief is one that is called the “Gap Theory” by the rest of the world. Of course, Exclusive Brethren are not the only ones who hold this theory.
Meanwhile, Adrian Sloan – don’t discard your beliefs in too quickly. Let’s see if these other chaps are willing to rise to the challenge.
Guest: Grace Freeborn now Harris
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: West Henrietta, NY, United States
Date & Comments: July 07, 2003
I have heard that many exEB's are getting calls from EB's appologizing for being nasty and kicking them out. They, of course, want the ex's to go back to the meeting. I recently talked to my mother but she is just the same--she wants to know when I am coming back, she won't say much else. So far, I have not gotten any call appologizing to me. Just thinking about the meeting makes me sick which is why I only visit this site about once a year. The good news, I just graduated from college with a Bachelor's Degree in math with secondary education certification. Hope I get a teaching job for fall.
Guest: Laurie Twinam
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Sevenoaks, Kent, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 07, 2003
Looking back to the Aberdeen events over 30 years ago convinces me that they were for many the means of a great deliverance. It was much more than a thorough exposure of the Jim regime (important though that exposure still is). And that exposure was not just of the misdemeanors of the leader but of the hierarchy who tried to whitewash him in the teeth of all the facts.
But I said it was a great deliverance! Yes – because it raised the question, ‘Where is the real truth?’ The leader had claimed to be the Lord’s direct representative on earth, but all that was now utterly discredited. The counterfeit currency was rejected, and there was a deep longing for the true currency. The Man of the Gospels, the Risen Christ, was the One who rightly claimed the direct and full allegiance of simple believers, and Jimism no longer held any sway over us. Praise the Lord!
I do realize that for many leaving the Jims today, the issues may seem not to be so clear-cut. But Aberdeen remains of great importance as the point of public exposure, is spite of the strenuous attempts made then and since to deny or confuse.
Guest: Rosalie Hulsing
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Canberra, Australia
Date & Comments: July 07, 2003
James Earl, SYDNEY
Hi James,
unfortunately our computer crashed just after I received your email. Would love to hear from you.
Sorry it has taken so long to reconnect
Rosie
Guest: David
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: London, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 07, 2003
Dear Readers
Can anyone, presumably some of the Scottish brethren, let me know anything about what has become of the brethren (ie meeting) there used to be in Stornoway. I have just found out through a friend who was staying very recently with the Church of Scotland minister there that to his knowledge there is just one family left, called Henderson, but needless to say he doesn't know to what group they belong, or whether there are any others. Would be grateful for any information.
David
Guest: W. Bradley McCallum
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Duesseldorf, Germany
Date & Comments: July 07, 2003
In response in particularly to the discussion regarding evolution, and in general to the other points of doctrine discussed,it seems patently obvious that if God cannot be fully comprehended, as we being human and He being God, from eternity to eternity, that it is simply so that we cannot fathom all the ways that God may choose to work.
Just because everything around me is not just like me, or is not according to my understanding of God, that does not mean that it is not OF God. For to take this position would be to put God in a box, the box of my own understanding. If God is greater than human understanding, than God's works also can transcend human understanding.
Perhaps we need to bow in awe and wonder at the might, the glory, and indeed the grace of He who was from the beginning and is to all eternity, and try to thus learn what new wonders He has waiting for us.
Guest: Cindy White
Guest E-mail:
City, Country:
Date & Comments: July 07, 2003
Dear Dick,
Congrats for creating a site that has grown to be an integral part of many lives, worldwide.
Through your efforts an effective sounding board for diverse opinions and personalities with a common interest is now well-founded. Your site is a way to find old friends and relatives, educational, and, importantly, a place for some heretofore misunderstoods to gain empathy and encouragement to be their best selves, with genuine understanding of past religious-based events that have shaped their lives. (Much better than paying a shrink!) Further, it is now an easily accessible place for questioning, perhaps disillusioned Peebs to read full truth. Plus, established caring long-distance relationships and sometimes personal get-togethers of kindred spirits.
You've unselfishly accomplished enormous good.
Thanks, Kiddo!
With much love,
Cindy White (nee Cynthia Norrell! , Christchurch, New Zealand)
Guest: Rachel Bryan
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: Grimsby, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 08, 2003
A most interesting site. It fills in a little of my family's story.
Thank you.
Guest: Peter Wade
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Coventry, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 08, 2003
Hi Rachel
Its great to see you have taken heed of what others are saying to you. I remember your Mum, Dad Colin, John and you. I spent a lot of time at your house every time we came to your area as a family.
The first thing I used to do was ask my parents if I could spend the day with John after the meetings had finished. I am sure your family will be hurting almost as you are, and thinking of you most days. The difference between them and us is that we have freedom of choice where they don't.
Don't worry about your kids, as they grow older they will except the situation and not be affected or miss out. I still think of my family with a lot of happy memories as I do of past friends (including John and Colin) and wonder how they are doing now. In the end I think I’m sure they are happy in what they are doing most of the time and I have a wife and two children who deserve my attention more than anything that happened in the past.
All the very best to you and your current family and I hope that the negatives of the past will fade away. If you feel you want to contact me, it would be great to hear from you.
Peter Wade
Guest: *suppressed by request*
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: Melbourne, Australia
Date & Comments: July 08, 2003
Re Creation / Evolution
Having read a lot of the "ministry" while in the EB's up til 7 years ago and following their teachings at the time, I can authoritatively comment on the following.
1. The EB's NEVER taught a young earth philosophy. My parents initially did but by reading the "ministry" and listening to the teachings a bit deeper I realised that it was never taught officially.
2 JT taught that there was a "Gap" of many millions of years between vs 1 & 2 of Genesis 1. He said this gap is explained and detailed in the prophets "Not as waste and empty did he create the earth - Ezekial. Something had come in before Adam & Eve to defile it and make it waste". This was said in the meetings many times.
It should be clear to any trusting christian that evolution and creation are the same thing. We are created to evolve - we are evolved to create. A trusting christian is an evolved being that God has created. Who cares how long it took Him or how He did it. Whatever scientists find it all points to One Source.
Peter
Guest: Christopher Shirreff
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Melbourne, Australia
Date & Comments: July 10, 2003
Hi to all brothers & sisters who are all still in their right minds, after the traumas of the contolling spirits of legalism have done their best to destroy peoples trust in a Loving Father, who also hates religious falseness & being misrepresented. I had 20 years of indoctrination, kicked out after telling them all they were a bunch of religious hypocrites. It has surely affected my life even uptil now. Praise God that after 3 years of wandering, the Lord drew me to Himself in such a real & loving way, showing me a video of my whole lie. In that encounter I was Born of God, had my spiritual eyes opened to see the true Father heart of God.
I have a burning desire to encourage & help restore any former exclusives who are still seeking to find answers. I am seeking to write a book, on the other side of religion. I welcome any testimonies that could be used.
Also I am seeking others who have or are contemplating litigation against compensation for destroyed lives. The exlusives, had a mtg about my case, the truth was brought to light, I was wrongfully withdrawn from @15, kept as a prisoner in my bedroom, now having inheritance withheld, because I dont agree with their control.Any conributions are welcomed please email me.
I encourage those who have been hurt, please dont get bitter, but continue to seek Truth, ask the Lord to show you whats really in your Heart . He will show you like He showed me, & you will never be the same again.
Guest: *suppressed by request*
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: Toronto, Canada
Date & Comments: July 10, 2003
My mother had the wisdom to break free of the EBs long before I was born. And growing up, she was always very forthright about the family that I would never know, answering all my pestering questions. You know, the constant - but why?.
As I grew older, I felt a need to reach out to my grandparents. You see, no matter how much my mom explained it, I always felt like something was wrong with me that my own grandparent's wouldn't want to know me. Even now, I still feel like something important is missing from my life.
At the same time, none of this has ever bothered my brother. I know that most children of exEBs who were never themselves in the brethren don't share my experience, but I don't think you should take for granted that it won't affect them. It's amazing how children can internalize things.
Just to be clear, I don't wish to have anything to do with any family members still in the brethren and am unbelievably thankful that my mom left... of course, if she hadn't, I wouldn't be here. Thanks Mom!
Guest: Alistair Bidmead
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Gloucester, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 10, 2003
Left in 1989 to marry Alison who is still my wife. We have three lovely children and are very happy. Recent events have disturbed us both with visits from family etc.
Guest: *suppressed by request*
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: Sydney, Australia
Date & Comments: July 11, 2003
I have been informed that a law will be tabled / introduced into the Federal Parliament of the Commonwealth of Australia that will recognize the mistreatment and sociological abuse that religious sects/churches have inflicted on individuals.
This will no doubt pave the way for wrong to be put right. For an example if a Father has been deprived of not seeing his children. The law will recognize that this man has every democratic right to take the Peebs to the dry cleaners
One of the fundamental principles that is the corner stone of Australia’s democratic constitution is the freedom of choice.
Do the Peebs practice this? No they do not.
They are in the way of democratic progress and should be relocated to North Korea where such barbaric ideologies are practiced.
If you’re reading this and are on the inside, please pass onto your locality leader.... Sorry the Trustees of your Meeting Rooms and your Schools because we are going to go for every penny you have taken under false pretence. ‘ Sue the Bastards”
Guest: James Taylor Simpson
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Alcester-nr Stratford upon Avon, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 11, 2003
I was put out and separated from my family at a very early age-15-in Belfast and the consequences for me were massive.A child alone-without the support or love of all those I had trusted and loved-forced to enter my 'home' via a separate entrance and have my meals put outside my door-to eat alone.How could those responsible call themselves christians-the Lord said 'suffer little children to come unto me' is that not clear enough.Does anyone remember-the son of Alex Simpson from Ballymena
Guest: Dave
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 11, 2003
Re. Suppressed by request, 11th July.
It is interesting that the law seems to be changing to take into account social trauma of religious cults in Australia. I have heard that some European Countries are doing the same. There appears to be a major change happening in France with the freeedom of religion there, even mainstream churches are worried.
Could this be the reason for the review, perhaps they want to reduce the number of persons who can sue them. If all those who have suffered at their hands were to sue them I would expect the business to fold.
Dave
Guest: Iain Gibb
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Grangemouth, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 11, 2003
To Anon-exeb of July 6 and Suppressed of July 8
Your recollection of what was taught or not taught in the EBs about creation is the same as mine. I can remember having discussions about the 'gap' theory and also about whether the 'days of creation' were meant to be 24 hour periods - mainly based on the verse 'one day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day'. When I was in the EBs I certainly did not believe in a 'young earth'. I have however checked my old JND Bible and in a preface 'Note on the Chronological Dates' which I believe was written by JND, it says 'From the creation to the birth of Messiah was 4000 years', so that does undermine your statement that it was never ever taught.
Whether I was in the minority in the EBs, in being willing to accept that God may have used evolution, I neither know nor care, but I agree with you the EBs were certainly not hot on the 6000 year old earth philosophy and I find it strange to see the two being thrown together.
When I was in the EBs, I had no problem with idea of dinosaurs living millions of years ago - which would have been a problem if I believed in a 6000 year old earth. I always have had a problem, and that problem grows with time rather than diminishes, with the idea that out of nothing with nothing as the cause, this amazing universe started to exist, and so I most definitely do believe in a divine creator, but whether He started 16 billion, 16 million or 16 thousand years ago is neither here nor there as far as my Christian beliefs are concerned.
In case anyone thinks this is a defence of the EBs, it most certainly is not. It is just I do not see the point of falling into the EB practice of throwing every bit of muck you can find at someone you don't like. And even if I am wrong and they all do believe in a 6000 year old earth, or a flat earth for that matter, that is as nothing compared to the havoc they have wrought in breaking up thousands of families and destroying thousands of lives.
My second observation is this - is freedom of speech available to every shade of belief except the right to question evolution? I looked at the 'answers in genesis' website. I do not agree with its stance. But is it not a point of view which deserves to be heard and answered with courtesy rather than abuse?
I'll get off my soap box now and if anybody wants to argue with me, my e-mail address is available.
Regards to all
Iain
Guest: Brendon Shirreff
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Melbourne, Australia
Date & Comments: July 12, 2003
Chris Shirreff;
Very strange to meet you on a site l frequent,(exclusivebrethren.net ) 3rd time in 30 years!
this is your younger Brother Brendon.
Interested in your seeming contradiction re; bitterness & litigation.
Don’t wory your head over them, they have got what's coming.’Vengance is mine’ saith the Lord!!
As you may well know l was held by them to be a litigant, in not dropping the matter of custody/access which was on the Family law list in Melbourne for seven long years.
Their ‘family’ is obviously is a terrorist organization, wreaking fear on their constituents, funded by Brethren businesses collecting Egypts’ valued spoils (Booty).
When we interfere in their little game, it galvanizes them together in true Luddite form.You know the drill, ignore them and their festering bubble of pride and self indulgence will burst.
They have forced communal giving for raising funds for the most brilliant legal talent available .Who after contributing to a cause does not then believe in it? Who gives the pieces of silver so little children should suffer without the relationship and headship of their natural father! We succeed in making them bigger drips in their tiny pond.
Who of us, seeing the goal of eternity with Christ ahead of us, is sidelined by such trivial things as these wankers make themselves BIG in their own imagination, fueled by malicious gossip, self aggrandizement, keeping past sins and an imaginary fear of anything outside the "hedge".
How small a drip in the ocean are they? Lets see,
We know at this time the world population stands @ 6,304,503,739, in USA, nudging 300,000,000 & in the great country of Australia near 19,000,000. Of MORE THAN 6.3 billion people on earth today, 37000 are current members of the exclusive brethren #4 <--- taylorites. This number, despite the wholesale watering down of their own arbitrary standards, both to hold onto a exodus en masse of those still with the ability to think and see for themselves and gather re-treads who for the motives of fear, family and financial incentives have sold their souls to s.
Take into account the 6x higher than average birth rate, which makes the statistics A I (artificially inflated.)
These statistics are to show the futility of the mindset " 'we' are the collective position (remnant) on earth holding 'THE ONLY' PURE place on earth for Christ to return"
Sorry scholars of Lud, the teaching of salvation is to all nations, to come to a knowledge of Jesus Christ and cross over from death (earth which is satan's) to eternal life, into a new heaven and earth (eternity) immediately on naming with their lips, Lord Jesus Christ as their personal savior.
About an inheritance? Hu? Hello! Why would we or can we take succession or hereditary possession when all there has been between us all is this Berlin style wall built of religious pride and self righteousness devoid of even natural love and affection. Is it to perpetuate a monument to Family Abortion?
I have already received and partaken of an inheritance from my heavenly Father that is ‘out of this world ’, treasure in heaven.
Take care Bro, look forward, and in all things add love.
Kind Regards;
Brendon Shirreff
Guest: John Weightman
Guest E-mail:
City, Country:
Date & Comments: July 12, 2003
Creation v Evolution is not a hobby horse of mine. I do believe in a Creator God. I have very little clue about how it all worked out. The Bible doesn't tell us. I'm happy to accept what the scientists tell us (within the context of a Creator) -that they have to keep revising dates doesn't bother me: it confirms my over-riding belief in the Creator.
One little observation about time. I cannot think that literal solar (24 hour)days were referred to in the Genesis account of creation. The sun wasn't created until the third day, yet there was evening and morning. So another measure must have been used. Each day could have been a thousand years, a mllion years, six months.
Best wishes
John
Guest: Richard Green
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Salisbury, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 12, 2003
Iain Gibb (July 11, 2003) says:-
“I always have had a problem, and that problem grows with time rather than diminishes, with the idea that out of nothing with nothing as the cause, this amazing universe started to exist, and so I most definitely do believe in a divine creator…”
This “Argument from Design” was demolished by David Hume in 1779 in “Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion” (http://www.anselm.edu/homepage/dbanach/dnr.htm), Part IV.
Guest: Francis
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: California, United States
Date & Comments: July 12, 2003
Richard Green's post correctly points out that David Hume successfully refutes the Argument from Design. Hume's essay is in his "Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion." For those who may wish to read the Argument from Design in terms more intelligent than the EBs are likely to use, I recommend Thomas Aquinas' "Summa Theologica" Ia.ii.3 and "Summa Contra Gentiles" I 13 and I 42. A thinking reader is likely to conclude that Hume is correct; the Argument from Design simply fails as an attempt to "prove" the existence of a god. Only pure faith, not argument or the quest for evidence, is an adequate basis for belief in God as Creator.
Guest: George Mair
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Maidenhead Berkshire, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 13, 2003
Is their an etymologist out there?
I have just read “Shut up Sarah” and “Don’t call me Sister” both excellently written by Marion Field, and it reminded me of the strange language that we often used. One could carry on a conversation with another on a train for example, and eavesdroppers would not know of which we spoke.
Can anyone offer a suggestion as to why did the Brethren “give out” hymns, instead of “suggest” “request” “offer” “propose” or even “put forward”?
Guest: Neville D. Overton
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Devonport Tasmania, Australia
Date & Comments: July 13, 2003
The discussion concerning evolution or creation is not a scientific versus religious dogma exercise, but is altogether a religious question, coming down to beliefs about origin - one arising from the speculative mind void of God - the other based on the premise that we have a revelation from God.For the Christian this is the total question - do we have a revelation from God? If we do then the only course for faith is to rest on it. Faith receives the word of God because it is the word of God and for no other reason, and acts on it,. Rationalism is not faith! There is no conflict between true science and true religion, but sadly there has been and is, a great lack of integrity in both areas in presentation. On the religious side the present push of the creation science lobby attempts to gain respectability with the science faction by saying"Perhaps each day of the six days of creation was actually a thousand years." Now they have bedded down with the proposal that the earth is only six thousand years young.
So called science is forever re-stating and rejecting its own postulations, though ever ready to push them in the academic arena as though they were facts. Science proposes certain hypothesis, such as that the earth is in all probability 4,500,000,000 years old. The Bible speaks of the ancient mountains and the everlasting hills, which in language intent does not conflict with the guesses of science. There are only two sources of information on which we can rely with certainty - the rocks(geology)and the Bible (revelation). There is nothing in the Bible about dinosaurs, but there is evidence of their pre-existence in the rocks. Conversely, you will not find any fossilised angels, but the Bible reveals the existence of angels. The Bible is proven in integrity. Peoples identified by it have been confirmed by archaeology. The only problem academics have with the Bible is in deciphering its mysterious typical and symbolic message; but the answer to mysteries is reserved for the initiated. Jesus said - "Unless a man is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." Gen.1-1 says - "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." The word for created is "bara"and it means to create out of nothing. Psalm 33-9 says - "He spoke and it was done; he commanded and it stood fast." Gen. 1-2 tells us - "the earth was waste and empty" or without form and void. Isaiah 45-18 - "He created it not waste" so the initial creation was not how it was revealed to be in verse 2. Exodus 20-11 says - "For in six days Jehovah made the heavens and earth" The Hebrew word for created relative to the six days is "Asah" and means to form out of what already exists. Each of those days saw conditions being introduced for the entrance of man: light, atmosphere,stability, rule and food. The configuration of planets obviously was not the same in the original creation because in the forming out of what already existed in the 6 days of re-creation the sun was hung in place on the fourth day.The age of the universe is immaterial, whatever it is, God fills the created and the uncreated. He is omnipresent. What concerns us is from Adam onwards and of course God's second man, the Lord out of heaven.Regarding anything before in terms of invention development, philosophy, or whatever - so what? Evolution is a nice idea to relieve man of his responsibility to God. A prominent scientist observed "The likelihood of the universe happening by accident is comparable to the unabridged dictionary happening through an explosion in a printers shop."
Guest: Tim Twinam
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Stowe, VT, United States
Date & Comments: July 13, 2003
What an extraordinarily diverse collection of views, doubts, worries, affirmations and possibilities! It almost makes you wonder if ex-EB's are not truly human after all ...
Me? Oh I try to start at the beginning when dealing with almighty God. I find that rather comforting. And if Moses decided to use the hebrew word for a generic passage of time, but emphasized and then re-emphasized (and then re-emphasized) the contextual meaning was a 'normal 24 hour day' ... I tend to feel that this was probably what he actually meant to write.
How strange to start doubting scripture from the very first few lines. It almost seems like a plot to discredit the bible! But that couldn't be the case ... could it? I mean, if you wanted to effectively discredit the sole existing witness in a cosmic court battle, where would you start?
Maybe we should just remember (with a little reverence) that if we make monkeys out of ourselves, how that reflects on Yahweh. The smidgen of reverence and resulting uneasiness in your belly should give a clue as to our ancestry. And if that doesn't work? Why then, let's just take the first four words that Moses was helped to pen:
"In the beginning God ... "
Not a bad place to start. It sort of places everything in perspective. Nothing to prove or disprove there. Just a statement of fact and for me, an acceptable Origin of Species.
But then, I am just another ex-EB and I have always loved bananas. That fact, together with the testimony of my first few girlfriends, warns me I should probably exit this debate as quickly as possible ...
Guest: anonymous
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Sydney (Eastwood), Australia
Date & Comments: July 13, 2003
If ever there was a prophetic word spoken, it is that priceless entry by a man called Brendon Shirreff. What power, what spiritual integrity, it makes the letter copied onto the site of BDH look like dribble with its impact on the Christian soul.
Guest: Stephen Rodgers
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Melbourne
Date & Comments: July 13, 2003
Some of the above comments have a major error. Genesis does not mean "In the Beginning" but "In a Beginning". Correct translation is " In a beginning, God created". How many have noticed that there are TWO Accounts of Man's Beginning. Gen.1 is a creation. Gen.2 is a formation or manufacture of a self reproducing biological machine called man. Gen.1 all is out of water or spirit and man is God's image as Male and female united, not just as male. Gen.2 all is out of the dust,man as a formation,then the woman much later, and even then it does not say man was awakened from his deep sleep. This occurrence is not by the Elohim, but a Lord God. Then we have the Sons of God coming down to earth. We have also the Serpents seed and the seed of the Woman,both in conflict, what a Pandora's Box was let loose. By there actions PB's would be the Serpents seed, we the seed of the Woman shall crush their head yet, all in God's time.
Guest: Anonymous
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 13, 2003
Learned creation scholars: Who cares ? If God had wanted it to be plain to you, he would have made it so. Deal with your intended ignorance and move on.
I doubt that you will take this advice on board, as the EB history shows that they have always liked schisms ; the consequence is that your children are turning away, and your bigotted little sect to disappear. You do not advertise your meetings and you prevent other Christians from sharing the Lord's supper with you. In fact, it is ironic that a sect which prides itself in stupidity ("We cannot presume to know the mind of God or understand his Ways" - how often have I heard that ...) seems to take upon themselves so many labours that would be better left to him..
Guest: Peter French
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Melbourne, Australia
Date & Comments: July 13, 2003
The discussions, and to a degree 'debate' on evolution v creation is interesting. It makes us feel a little insignificant maybe, which must be a change of feeling for those of us of peeb origin who were taught to believe that we and our sphere were all that mattered ... a little like observing the world from 9 KM above it and having fleeting realisations that our vision of things is so often utterly restricted.
This disucssions has also highligted that whilst in the peebs, we were told what we were to believe - all freedom of thought was foribdden to those of us in the rank and file. Unforntunately for some of us, this attitude still prevails. Progressively education that took us to a point of learning how to learn, was forbidden, as was any environment that engendered that desire. So not only were univerisites ruled out but now the very essential school environment is programmed in Peebville. Interesting - the tenuous nature of the 'beliefs' have become so 'shaky' that only a chosen few have any liberty of thought. When I think back to Darby and his cronies, really nothing has changed - but I will be castigated for this. That, I count to be an honour.
This all brings up the issue as to what we really 'believe' - what are the mechanisms of our, or for that matter, any religious belief? Many hold that some religious beliefs qualify as delusions - yes *delusions*. It is also held that 'religious experiences' are often produced by changes in brain activity. It has been shown that when Buddhist monks went into deep meditation and had a sense of '...being at one with the world...' they also had reduced blood flow to the part of the brain responsible for concpets of the 'self'.
Currently a line is being attempted to be drawn between intense religiosity and psychosis, as it is thought that religion could offer a model for delusion, and help those with psychiatric delusions.
So as peebs did we really have any experiences, or were we simply *deluded*? And does this, to some degree, explain the peebs present activities and the position they take - they are *deluded*? Have we in the past, and do they now continue to suffer from some neuropsychological anomaly?
Is that an explanation, or are they simply evil?
Guest: Victor Congdon
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Portland, CT, United States
Date & Comments: July 13, 2003
Greetings,
TimTwinam's comment that "we make monkeys out of ourselves" got my attention. Interesting comment for the evolution seekers. Right on Tim, I know how to do that and have done it often. But I never called it evolution. I called it stupidity or lack of knowledge. I learned a long time ago that God knows a lot about a lot that I don't have a clue about. So in an attempt to make me a monkey again I was wondering what a mule would evolve into. Maybe there is no evolution for mules. Interesting thought. Are there any other of God's creatures for which there is no evolution? I suppose so.
Only by grace,
Victor
Guest: Stephen Rodgers
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Melbourne, Australia
Date & Comments: July 14, 2003
Peter we must become alert to hear every note, of that commanding Voice of Grace that called us out of Peebs. But we have to go further, we have to smash all those fossilized relics of religious thinking, that have crystallized as intellectual debris forming the foundation of Peeb's beleifs. WE must rise right out of this artificial saturation. Sure we have whipped the funnel out of our heads, whereby their Leaders tipped their diabolical truths straight through uncensored. But beware, less we become a prey to other like minded teachers! How content we were once in this morass of delusion, and a false sense of superiority, that held us in that unproductive Prison of sterile frigidity. Having made that transition, we must move on, from darkness to light, from evolution to a future Heaven, to an involution to a heaven within, available in the eternal NOW. Now this CONCIOUSNESS is apperceived as the Mind of Christ, which is All that the Life of Christ [blood] IS. To be a follower of Christ, you must "deny self" and all it's outward vestments. Only free from all this inertia, can your body, soul and spirit be redeemed. You renounce all the psychological and pseudo creations of self/serpent. Then as Paul you too, will be delivered out of the Lion's mouth.
Guest: Daniel Lee
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: United States
Date & Comments: July 14, 2003
Before getting too excited about what Moses might have written, or might meant had he written it, one would do well to read up on the "Documentary Hypothesis". The concept was well established even before Darby started all the fun that resulted in our being on this site today. The Hypothesis is even more widely accepted by the Jews, about whom and for whom the so called "Old Testament", their bible, was written. What a terrible shame that we (Brethren) were kept in the dark for so long, and that so many forms of Christianity are still determined to remain there.
Guest: *suppressed by request*
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 14, 2003
To the person who responded to my request for news of Elspeth Brown (Erskine)- thank you. If you were willing, you could send an e-mail to me via Dick, I have asked him and he will pass it on.
Guest: Anon EX-EB
Guest E-mail:
City, Country:
Date & Comments: July 14, 2003
Dear John Weightman,
You are the right – the sun was created on day 4. Light was created on day 1. Our small minds cannot comprehend light without the sun. This calls for faith. My faith allows me to believe that we have a God who can create light as independent of the light source. Remember too that “God IS light”.
Exodus 20:11 tells us that “For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is “ The context of this scripture is definitely to do with 24 hour days. Otherwise Moses was simply misleading his followers. He was telling them to work 6 days and rest for one. His listeners would have concluded that God used 6 x 24 hour days to do the work of creation.
And what is more, Adam was created on day 6. If a day was in fact 1000 years (the most popular time-frame used by the proponents of the “day-age” theory) then he would have been 1000 years old before the end of the creation week! No one would argue that Adam did not have a significant life span beyond the creation week. Yet it clearly says in that he died at 963 years old (Gen 5:5).
Dear Francis,
I agree – faith is the prerequisite for a Christian. But I would add that faith (of a different kind) is also needed for the followers of evolution. Evolution is not science – it is a religion … and as such requires faith.
But seriously, I believe that Scripture is the inspired, infallible and inerrant Word of God. This might put me at odds with many folk. However it does interest me to observe the scientific evidence (as opposed to theories) which confirm the bible.
Dear Iain Gibb,
The stock statement among EBs was “Give the scientists all the time they need between verse 1 and 2 of Genenis 1”. This is the gap theory. Many men of influence in the 19th century subscribed to this idea including Darby.
Such a belief would not clash with the comment in the preface of his translation. They believed in the “6 literal day creation” and from this point would calculate that 4000 years (approx) would have elapsed until the birth of the Messiah. But strictly, thy should not use the term “creation” but rather “re-creation”. This would differentiate it from the initial creation of Gen 1:1 which they believe ended up “waste and empty” after possibly millions of years.
Dear Peter “Suppressed by Request”
I respect your right to have your own opinion. I can only state mine in response. Creation and Evolution are mutually exclusive. Theistic evolution is, I believe, nothing but a pandering to atheistic evolution. Darwin himself conceded that if “irreducible complexity” could be proved in biological systems, his theory would collapse. It has been proved.
But my faith does not stand in scientific evidence, no matter how positive. It stands in God’s Word. At the best, the other is only confirmation and therefore of interest.
Best of wishes to all
Guest: Paul Darroch
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Auckland, New Zealand
Date & Comments: July 14, 2003
Mangere Mountain Miracle. Back in 1988/89 when we were lost and looking for christian fellowship we went to the tiny stone Mangere church. There a sister told of a dream she had about our local Brethren. Since it seems all the Auckland Brethren have come to the mountain to live or go to school. But I weep for lost cousins and know the time of our visitation is close now. If you have faith, join in prayer love paul.
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Canada
Date & Comments: July 14, 2003
I like a good debate as much as anyone- and who knows, sometimes just hearing another opinion, or hearing your's challenged lets you learn something.
But, I reflect on this point-no matter what the discussion, be it the origins of creation, or even some debate on beliefs-it requires no personal effort- it remains pure speculative and theoretical.
Jesus' ministry was practical- he began to ''do and to teach'' - by example. He could have easily answeared many of these questions- but didn't. What he did do was show us how to have compassion, how to treat people - the poor and disadvantaged. He took a little child and said ' unless you become as little children, you will never understand the kingdom of God''.
Matter of fact- what he did was so diametrically opposed to the ruling religeos bodies of the day, they would not have it, Indeed they said ''Away with this man- we will not have him to rule over us'' - for what? Because he had compassion? Is that why they hated him?
I sometimes think these great debates originate by old men sitting in armchairs, and interesting as they are - they require no effort on our part. To follow Christ means to put our own interests aside and emulate his walk - that takes sacrifice - but isn't that what it's all about?
Guest: *suppressed by request*
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: Adelaide, Australia
Date & Comments: July 15, 2003
To: Anon EX-EB
July 14, 2003
"irreducible complexity” has by no means been proved.
Guest: James, Raymond
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Toronto, Canada
Date & Comments: July 16, 2003
It has been over 40 years since I left the fellowship but the Brethren will never leave me. They have loved me, been unkind to me, snobbed me, but I hold them, most of them anyway in high esteem. I feel so sad that they have been led down such a dreary trail.
Guest: *suppressed by request*
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: London, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 16, 2003
<"irreducible complexity” has by no means been proved.>
It most certainly has in the cases of:
- most government forms
- VCR controls
- Lucas electrics
- phone-bills
- and by no means least, Teenagers.
Guest: *suppressed by request*
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 16, 2003
You have no name or email address? Who are you? I'd rather know who you are........
Elspeth is a relation of mine.
> Guest: *suppressed by request*
>
> Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
>
> City, Country: United Kingdom
>
> Date & Comments: July 14, 2003
>
> To the person who responded to my request for news of Elspeth Brown (Erskine)- thank you. If you were willing, you could send an e-mail to me via Dick, I have asked him and he will pass it on.
Guest: Chris Harwood
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Buckhurst Hill, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 16, 2003
To W. Bradley McCallum
I wholeheartedly endorse your view. God has, however, also made us inquisitive and as we discover new facts about the universe, we can praise Him or ourselves. I join you in doing the former.
At a tangent though, I am an engineer and have embraced a computer programming technique called Object Oriented Programming. This is a structured approach that tries to be efficient through modelling real-life objects and situations. It aims to produce re-useable code and there is a distinct hierarchy in the objects one creates. There are the extremely simple ones which are built-on to produce more complex ones e.g. a 'character' object can be the basis for a 'word' object which can eventually form part of a 'word-processor' object.
To an unbeliever (in me), analysis of my creativity could give the impression that 'characters' evolved into 'word-processors' which I would claim is nonsense. The evidence, however, is the same to all who delve.
When I read the brief creation account in Genesis and stop to consider half-way through, I wonder before making mankind, what materials are at God's disposal? He could start from nothing again, or build on what He's already made. Either way, it's still marvellous. Praise Him.
Guest: Jenny Dowding (McMullan)
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Gloucester - prev Belfast, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 17, 2003
I was wondering if anyone knows of the wherabouts of RUTH DANIELS. In the 1970's when we were both in out late teens, we were friends. She was from WORCESTER UK and was in the Peebs but her parents were out. It would be lovely to know if she is contactable.
Further to my previous posting in March, I have decided to go and see my parents next month. It has been a decision slow in coming and I am scared about how I will feel. I have no intention of going back to the Peebs and have made that clear to them. As they are still willing to see us, I will go. Better not expect a hug though!!! All the best to all the survivors out there, and especially to Scott who I have had the privilage to meet up with recently. Some folks stories make your hair curl...and mine is not noted for curls!! Jenny
Guest: Roger Stott
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Exeter, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 17, 2003
This is getting out of hand. There have to be some readers of this 'visitor's book which turned into a forum' who have some respect for scientific method rather than 'creation magic'? I find it extremely depressing that ex-exclusives, having escaped from one kind of tunnel vision should now be asserting a kind of 'flat-earth society' range of superstitions. It's only one step away from the rain forest tribesman prostrating himself to the ground when the Skygod flashes and thunders.
This hypothetical god is all-powerful, all-knowing and everywhere at once. Why then is it so marvellous that he can do things? With those attributes anyone could. (Which is I understand the postulation of a rather silly film called Bruce Almighty, out at the moment.) So why all the praise and wonder? Magic isn't surprising. The detail of the evolution of species on the other hand is enthralling and exciting. Enter the world of rationality. Read Richard Dawkins, Stephen Jay Gould or even Rebecca Stott's 'Darwin and the Barnacle' published by Faber in May this year. (She's my daughter.) It may not change your beliefs but it might stop some of the jeering at science.
Roger Stott
Guest: Mark Watson
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Wollongong NSW, Australia
Date & Comments: July 17, 2003
Interesting discussion re evolution etc etc. Don't know if it is getting older, but it doesn't worry me how/where we came from. What matters to me is what is now, and what is the future.
It was interesting today when i was in a nuclear medicine clinic with my fiancee, to see an EB couple frantically reading the Womens magazines in the waiting room.
On another note, I heard that David Ruddiman (ex Picton NSW) has passed away in the last few weeks.
Keep up the discussions, but don't criticise one for believing one thing or another. If one wishes to believe in the Bible, or one wishes to believe in Harry Potter, then so be it. To me, they are just well written books.
Guest: John Fanton
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: London, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 17, 2003
I have not written before, but feel constrained to do so. I must respond to Mr. Stott's: "It may not change your beliefs but it might stop some of the jeering at science."
My goodness. What came first? God or science? For a Back-slider (I recall and have sat through some of your earnest preachings in the past) you make me tremble on your behalf.
Please people, do not judge God by comments such as this. God has NOTHING to do with ex- or current Exclusive Brethren in terms of understanding. He is far greater than anything we can imagine.
Maybe we cannot understand or comprehend the power of creation, but God bears NO comparison with mans invention - science. God is, was and will be. Science is the true evolution, it changes second by second. Unfortunately, not always gaining ground.
Fear God. Pascal was certainly headed in the right direction.
Guest: Cynthia White
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Vancouver, WA, United States
Date & Comments: July 18, 2003
We can proffer opinions, debate, argue or agree but not a single one of us knows what it's ALL about. At least not as long as we live in earthly territory. After that?
Who can truly provide earthlies with ALL facts?
Albeit a believer in "Something or Someone More", "blind faith" is not sufficient for me.
Cynthia
Guest: Laurie Twinam
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Sevenoaks, Kent, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 18, 2003
Thank you, John Fanton, for your timely reference to the almightiness of God. The amazing demonstration all around us in Creation should convict us of that, despite our natural waywardness. In particular, there is more known today than ever before about the unique distinction of the delightful planet on which we all live. Where else in the wide universe, despite an extraordinary level of research, is there any substantial evidence of life, and of copious supplies of water, carbon and oxygen ? Is not our admiration due for the finesse and delicate balance that suspends in orbit our little rotating planet at the appropriate distance from its solar powerhouse – neither too hot nor too cold for its inhabitants ? As we all learned at school, we are all shielded from excessive heat and cold by its atmosphere and its oceans, and from harmful cosmic radiation by its atmospheric ozone.
The neighbouring solar planets and the regions beyond have nothing like this to show us in spite of the wishful thinking that through the years has inspired endless speculation and many expensive programmes of space exploration. Why are we so persistent in our efforts to discover life outside our own little sphere? Human curiosity is good up to a point, but I fear the principal reason may well be a proud refusal to accept that our beautiful planet-home is a special creation by God, designed and sustained with His supreme wisdom and loving care.
We can all learn a lot about God’s wisdom from Creation. And the fear of The Lord is the beginning of wisdom.
Guest: Vincenzo Cimmino
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Castellammare di Stabia Naples, Italy
Date & Comments: July 18, 2003
I would love to read of any who remembers us.
I spent my teen age in England visiting many homes of brethren in UK, Canada and USA. We keep waking in faithfullmes to our Lord Jesus Christ in the midst of gross darkness. I'm now 54, in 1970 I was 22 and well remember the happenings of the time.
Guest: Brendon Shirreff
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Melbourne, Australia
Date & Comments: July 18, 2003
Dearly Beloved; (I think that is how a good debate should start! It used to launch life changing, family shattering tirades such as ‘The separation matter’, ‘The eating matter’, ‘Aberdeen’, ‘the System’, ‘the no grey matter’ and ‘the bad use of English language matter’ etc.)
Now I prophesy (first on Tuesday nite) there should be a forum page added to your wwf.wonderful web wrestling page Dick, as it grows on to cover topics such as Evolution, Philosophy, Theology, E.B. Law, Eloquence and Web Etiquette in a Guest Book? as learned men in their Schools of opinion orate at length, there may perhaps be a playground for them.
I also hold fast to the thought ‘the pen is mightier than the sword’ but to me as I read about Jesus, the only thing he wrote that we know about, was in the sand as the scribes and peebs tested him on the law and Judgment of the adulterous woman…
it is by his works he was known, as us also. That is why serving in a practical ministry beckons me.
Guest: Elizabeth Bunting
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Nanaimo, Canada
Date & Comments: July 19, 2003
I have noticed that some contributors have criticized the guest book because of "hobby horses" (previous contributor) of some of the participants being described in the guest book. If Dick has a problem with us talking about anything other than looking up old acquaintances in the guest book, I would appreciate it if he would let us know.
I notice one contributor stating, regarding the discussion about creation "This has gone far enough." Are we allowed to voice our opinions on the theological and doctrinal matters which concern us here in the guest book, or should there be another forum where these matters can be discussed?
Also, I have noticed that when a present EB person makes a contribution they are completely slated as to their spelling, their motives, their personality and character. It is my belief that when an EB person has the courage to contribute to the website, even if it is negative, we should attempt to dialogue with them and not treat them as though they are "the enemy". These EB people are in a great deal of spiritual trouble whether they realize it or not.
The many life experiences of the Ex-EB people could help the present EB people to become a great power for God in this present culture if they would continue to dialogue with them in a more positive and affirming manner.
It strikes me that the reason the EB's have completely withdrawn from society is that they are in a spiritual depression where they do not believe they can be a positive influence, so they have dropped out! This would be the easiest thing to do rather than confront the "spiritual hosts of wickedness in heavenly places" as per the Apostle Paul.
The latest few edicts from the "Empty Vessel" have proved that to me.
Yours through grace,
Elizabeth Bunting
Guest: Gerry Spiers
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Worcester, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 20, 2003
Hey Folks,
Only one month to go, and normality will return to these pages! The football season starts again in mid August!!
See you then.
Gerry.
Guest: Brother Francis
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: California, United States
Date & Comments: July 20, 2003
Creationism and science (evolution) should not be seen as at odds with one another because they belong in different domains of knowledge.
Science deals with material reality, not with faith.
Religious beliefs have their only sound basis in faith, not science.
Creationism is a matter of faith, a faith which I do not share. Why? because I am a scientist who has considered FACTS, and the fundamentalist interpretation - including Brethren's fundamentalism - simply does not address the facts.
Those who argue for creationism have usually made up their minds before considering the facts and are committed to retain their belief in fundamentalist creationism regardless of what the facts are. That may be FAITH but is not SCIENCE.
Like my fellow Anglican Charles Darwin I prefer to believe according to FACTS - which can be observed and measured, and by scientific theories which can be tested in attempts to disprove their conclusions.
I recommend the first two pages of "Origin of Species" - beautifully written and a compelling defense of natural selection, the foundation ofevolutionary science.
Evolutionary biology succeeds because it recognizes natural - not supernatural - selection.
The Brethren make apes of themselves by pronouncing judgments in ignorance of FACTS: for example, denouncing garage door openers on the grounds that they use radio waves while continuing to use telephone circuits based on microwave radio waves - oh yes BTW, do Brethren permit microwave ovens?
Guest: *suppressed by request*
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: ex Barnet, UK, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 20, 2003
I have heard this week information about Justin Cooper, the young brother in prison for dangerous driving, and the press report from Barnet & Potters Bar where he had requested that his sentence be cut short as he was having such a bad time etc. I heard this week that he has been released from prison and that he will not be withdrawn from as "the period of grace has been extended to him". They are using him as an example to try and bring the other youngsters back into line!
Guest: Brother Timmy
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Vermont, United States
Date & Comments: July 20, 2003
One of the more glorious examples of the Evolution Process has to be the failed change-over from driving on the left to the right-hand side of the street as occurred in Ireland not so long ago. The problem, you may recall, was not the change itself, it was the period of time that was allocated to the process. Two weeks was considered far too long during the many post mortems and class actions that occurred as a result. It was such an embarrassing episode that many people have since totally forgotten all about it ...
The 'point'? OK ... how long did it take the woodpecker to evolve so that it didn't drive its beak right through its skull into its brain? Or the famous Bombardier Beetles' twin swivelling gun turrets that fire an explosive mixture of chemicals at threats? The swim-bladderless deepsea Angler Fish ... All these are 'old' questions to the experienced Creation / Evolution debater, but they are VERY IMPORTANT! You see, for evolution to work, it needs survival - and survival over long periods of time according to the "millions and millions of years" needed for evolution to work. That is an immense number of exploding Angler Fish, Bombardier Beetles and Woodpeckers with severe migraines.
Death is a bit of a downer for most of us ... and particularly so for the Evolutionist. If an early version of the Bombardier Beetle got the mixture wrong with a little too much ammonia, the genes had somewhat of a problem passing on the information. Millions of years accomplishes that? OK, so what came first ... the giraffes long neck or the incredible blood pressure necessary to power the animals' brain? The list of head-scratching puzzles goes on and on ...
Like Bro Francis says, at the end of the day, it becomes a matter of faith ... but it really is so easy to poke holes into the evolution hypothesis. I mean, ask a Geneticist if there is ANY example of a creature ADDING information to those memory-cards of life - DNA. There's lots of examples of LOSS, but NO examples of Adding ... get the significance? To a fish deciding to abandon use of the gills and start extracting oxygen from air, it's the only way that it can instruct its offspring accordingly.
Much of the above comes from a Scientist - Michael Behe, but in my opinion, there's an element of common sense involved. You see, it's not all design, it's Planning too. The concept of evolution can only have a short-term focus and 'it' has no idea where it's headed. The very nature of the theory involves extraneous influence. Of course, some simply suggest that God was the 'extraneous influence' - yeah, I guess He is! But why start with a monkey if you have the power to go straight to the organ grinder? And if God decided to make Man in His image ... why go so slowly? Why so much pain, suffering and death? I mean, just imagine the headaches of those pre-giraffes, or the pre-woodpeckers stuck ingloriously in trees - let alone the eye-watering rear-end issues of the unsuccessful Bombardier trainee.
At which point did the Architect stand back and say that it was "Very Good"? 17 Billion years after He started? The last verse of Genesis 1 says "ALL that he had made". Those 'evolutionists' that claim God used evolution possibly have a wee problem there ... "ALL" would have to include splattered Bombardiers, headless Giraffes, flattened Anglers and comatose Woodpeckers.
Out of respect for everyone on here ... I PROMISE not to spout any more on this issue! (Honest!) But, just before I go ...
Darwin went to Cambridge to study divinity and join the church. While there however, an interest in natural history was sparked and he spent most of his leisure time collecting beetles. Let this be a warning to all Divinity Students everywhere! (There is however, no record as to whether he ever collected a sample of the Bombadier Beetle.)
There is also no evidence in any of Charles Darwin's published correspondence and writings that he ever embraced biblical Christianity. He always concealed his rejection of Christianity, but in his 1876 Autobiography he stated his unbelief in very blunt, even crude words. Sadly, I'm not sure therefore whether he was, or was not an Anglican.
So in closing ...
may I recommend the first two pages of "The Holy Bible" - beautifully written and a compelling defense of Creationalism, the foundation of God's amazing love for humanity.
Grins, apologies where needed and happy debating!
Tim
Guest: *suppressed by request*
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: Manchester, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 21, 2003
Oh now that is way to true Enlightenment - I was just starting to enjoy this. Are you serious when you would rather listen to a chorus of 'dont know'? Is it just me or isn't this debate getting utterly fascinating? I tell you for one thing, ex-eb's or whatever we are, we're VERY INTERESTING PEOPLE. I LIKE US!
Guest: Sarah Spencer
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: New Zealand
Date & Comments: July 21, 2003
Well said Tim!! If anyone wants to read a book which explodes the evolution theory and states it for what it really is - try "Evolution: the fossils still say No!" written by Duane T. Gish Ph.D., Senior Vice President and Professor of Natural Science at the Institute for Creation Research, Santee, California. This book was published in 1995 and makes for extremely enlightening reading.
Guest: Dave
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 21, 2003
Evolution v Creation.
Let's not have this debate here, it is unlikely that we can conclude anything. It is going on elsewhere on the web, this space is too valuable.
It is simply a question of faith v imagination. You can't prove either. Little of the fundamental evidence for evolution has ever been observed to happen but has been observed to not be happening now. Little of the biblical summary of creation can be verified.
In my experience, creationists rest totally in faith that although the evidence is not there they trust that the source is credible. The evolutionists will try to match what they find to the theory put forward by Darwin, but can't. Faith in the source seems to me to be more honest than stretching the evidence to match the theory. I would prefer to listen to somebody who said they didn't know, it seems even more honest to me.
Dave
Guest: Sarah Clarke
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: Victoria BC, Canada
Date & Comments: July 21, 2003
On July 13th, Peter French posed the following question:
"This all brings up the issue as to what we really 'believe' - what are the mechanisms of our, or for that matter, any religious belief? "
It was a thoughtful question and deserves a thoughtful answer. After much analysis and soul searching, the answer that immediately came to mind remains the only answer I have to offer:
"I know in whom I have believed (Christ) and am persuaded
that He is able to keep that (my soul salvation) which I
have entrusted unto Him." (The Holy Bible, 2 Timothy 1:12)
There is a tremendous amount that I do not know - the why's, what's and when's of all the intricacies of life. Furthermore, my university education has taught me how very little we humans actually "know" of an absolute certainty. (Many theories, but few facts and even those "facts" are being challenged and discredited! on an almost daily basis.)
And nor do I, myself, possess the intellectual or the theological tools to adequately explain the mechanisms of my spiritual beliefs. But I do know of an absolute certainty in Whom I believe - the Lord Jesus Christ - and upon Him and His Word, I rest my case.
Sarah Clarke
Guest: tom
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Ontario, Canada
Date & Comments: July 22, 2003
Just to let the EBs know I have a friend that goes there and he leaks to me what you do inside your meeting hall. Yes he comes to see me. Try and catch him so you can kick him out for seeing me - after all dosen't your church not allow your members to see friends not in your church
Wait a minute. If you dont let people in your church hang around with others in the world, how do you see anyone saved? How do you talk to an unsaved on their way to hell if you can't have converstions with people outside your church? This guy's mother isn't in your church and he can't contact her? How is he ever going to talk to her about her soul and salvation if he never can contact her? Could somone explain this to me? My other friend's mom is dead and he had not seen her for 20 years thanks to you guys exclusive know-it-all's. Wait! I need this stuff explained. I do not understand it.
Guest: Brother Rodney
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Brisbane, Australia
Date & Comments: July 22, 2003
I see that Roger Stott is accused of backsliding!
What a great word! That took me back thirty-two years, eleven months and twenty-eight days!
What a compliment. Probably one of the best accolades that could be bestowed upon me would be that I had backslid from the EBs.
It reminds me of the time a local young 'brother' was up before the assembly for visiting a Baptist church (presumably because he found the EBs lacking). But they weren't too rough on him. Rather than denouncing him as totally evil it was accepted that he had just 'grown cold'.
Signed,
Backsliding Rodney (and proud of it!)
Guest: Stephen Rodgers
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Melbourne, Australia
Date & Comments: July 22, 2003
Sarah, the only mechanism of mind we have for discovering religious belief, is our carnal mind. All thoughts within mind produce a change within the chemical makeup of the brain, with a corresponding neurological tension within that mechanism.Within all the chaos and anarchy that exists on the verbal level, compromised by our subjective emotions, cultural and religious conditionings, how can I have absolute certainty "in whom I believe?"
Our split mind functioning from the Tree of knowledge of Good and Evil, ever judging all those not of our ilk, how can it know the Tree of Life?.If I do not even know who "I am", how can I know anyone else? How can I know anyone else, unless I partake of their very nature too? Does carnal mind know God? One speaks of the death of the "Old Man", but it is the Old Man that speaks.
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Canada
Date & Comments: July 22, 2003
I never fail to be amazed at how much time and attention can be accorded to subjects that Christ never even raised - such as how old the universe is, or how it came into being.
After spending interminable hours sitting through "fellowship meetings" [which were mainly a venue for the pumped up aspiring new leaders jockeying for attention] I reflect that the main subjects inevitably were
[a] how "we" were always "right" to the exclusion of everybody else, and
[b] what the current "issue" was
One rather curious PB feature in all meetings was the use of initials to denote their leaders - anybody who was anybody was never referred to by name - but rather their initials. You didn't put forth any personal ideas or concepts - if you wanted to be noticed, you "quoted the ministry" [Beloved XYZ said in volume123]. No one dared contradict that, or venture any other opinion, as "ministry" took precidence over the scriptures.
I find it strange that so much attention is paid to things that have so little relevance to our day to day christian walk, and indeed to questions we can never even understand let alone answear, and so little attention is actually paid to Christ's teachings - or emulating his life.
Where does "shepherd my sheep and feed my lambs" fit into all this - or has that been buried under interminable discussions on doctrine?
I find it strange that the christian church [including the PB's], by and large, have recreated the pharacitical system that had no time or place for Christ, and spends it's time and focus on "who will be the greatest". Did not our Lord take a basin and wash his disciples feet?
Guest: Chris Harwood
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Buckhurst Hill, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 22, 2003
Stephen Rodgers - Have you been at the Foster's? I can't get my head round that!
Incidentally on the evolution debate, in my first year at university we had a series of lectures to try and dispel pre-conceived ideas. The lecturer very succinctly persuaded us that so-called facts are really just agreements amongst groups of people. We students subsequently proclaimed that the lecturer didn't exist and the discussions moved to more light-hearted topics. Interruptions from the said man were dismissed as ambient noise. By-the-way; Don't Forget the Brethren Humour section under Correspondence. It needs some fresh input.
Guest: Alistair Deayton
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Paisley, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 22, 2003
Belatedly joining the evolution/creation debate.
Surely if God is omnipotent (all-powerful), he is capable of having created the world in six days.
If you look at Genesis 1, the order in which different types of creatures are created is exactly the same as is borne out by fossil records.
Whether I look through a telescope or a miscrospe, I marvel at a world and universe that was created by a designer God, and not at random.
And it is even more marvellous that such a God sent his own Son to die a cruel death, a death that I should have died, on Calvary to save me, and to save you too, if you believe.
Guest: Iain Gibb
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Grangemouth, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 23, 2003
Following the debate about creation vs evolution, I came across these paragraphs from Professor MacLeod, currently Professor of Systematic Theology in the Free Church of Scotland:
"There is the unsurpassable biblical idea of creation in Christ. John 1:3 ‘All things were made by Him and without Him was not anything that was made’. Hebrews 1:2 ‘By whom also He made the worlds’. A world made BY Christ! One that has impressed upon it all His characteristics: His wisdom, His truth, His love. We love it because He made it. But there is something even greater: the world made IN Christ. Creation is Christ shaped. The space-time curve is Christ-shaped. It is built upon the Lamb of God, expressing the same heart as broke at Calvary. This helps us how, in the incarnation, God can come into such intimate union with His creation. He identifies with the created spirit in the mind of Christ. He identifies with created matter in the body of Christ. That surely is the glory of matter: that God saw fit to take it to Himself, and even to BECOME it in the body of His Son. Beyond that there is only the supreme achievement of the Maker, the Omega point beyond the Omega point: the resurrection body of Jesus, where the great Artist takes the dust of the earth and forms out of it the body of His exalted Son, with such triumphant success that in and through that dust we see the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
That is why we can never despise the material and the tangible and why we can never despise or abuse the world in which we live, or be afraid to ask it questions. Christ is the truth of creation as surely as He is the truth of redemption.”
A few questions in there for me to ask Prof MacLeod next time I see him, but I found it a lot more thought provoking than ‘evolution’ versus ‘creation'.
Regards to all
Iain
Guest: *suppressed by request*
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 23, 2003
One day a group of scientists got together and decided that man had come such a long way that they no longer needed God. So they picked one scientist to go and tell Him that they were done with Him.
The scientist walked up to God and said, "God, we've decided that we no longer need you.
We're to the point that we can clone people and do many miraculous things, so why don't you just go on and get lost."
God listened very patiently and kindly to the man. After the scientist had finished talking, God said, "Very well, how about this? Let's say we have a man-making contest."
To which the scientist replied, "Okay, great!"
But God added, "Now, we're going to do this just like I did back in the old days with Adam."
The scientist said, "Sure, no problem" and bent down and grabbed himself a handful of dirt.
God looked at him and said, "No, no, no. You go get your own dirt!"
Guest: *suppressed by request*
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: Sydney, Australia
Date & Comments: July 23, 2003
Relative to the creation/evolution theory.
I may have missed it, but these therories are both acceptable side by side. There is little doubt man has evolved over the 2000 years. He is taller stronger less willing to work than his ancestors. That is simple fact. The Brethren were "Created by JND and evolved to BDH".
Guest: Kate Teasdale
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Singleton NSW, Australia
Date & Comments: July 23, 2003
We have recently found a number of brethren families moving thick and fast to our town, one family has moved next door and have already created problems. We have also noted that they seem to have a lot of money to throw around. We would like to know which type of brethren these people are, and anything else that might be of interest. They also seem to have no regard for local government. Any information would be helpful.
Guest: Peter French
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Melbourne, Australia
Date & Comments: July 24, 2003
Iain Gibb quothe Professor MacLeod, currently Professor of Systematic Theology in the Free Church of Scotland who saith '... the unsurpassable biblical idea of creation in Christ...All things were made by Him and without Him was not anything that was made... a world made BY Christ! One that has impressed upon it all His characteristics...creation is Christ shaped...'
I don't think many would understand that in relation to Saddam H and his sons ... so what went wrong?
It is a regular defence against the God and creation belief - if what you say is so true, how is it that such a God as you extoll would permit such misery and hurt, let alone create such adominable creatures as the people I have mentioned?
Guest: *suppressed by request*
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: London, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 24, 2003
In response to Peter French - 24th July
Is this Theology 101?
The answer is of course, SIN. Genesis 3 has the basic facts, Romans fleshes it out a bit.
And as the News seems to confirm, 'The wages of Sin is Death'.
Guest: Martyn Ricketts
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: Evesham, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 24, 2003
I’m not going to get drawn into the Creation V evolution debate but I thought the following from the BBC website recently was fascinating.
Astronomers in Australia say there are 10 times more stars in the visible Universe than all the grains of sand on the world's beaches and deserts.
From the darkest parts of Earth, the naked human eye can see about 5,000 stars; from a brightly lit city street, only about 100.
But modern telescopes tell a different story.
The Australian astronomers used some of the world's most powerful instruments to measure the brightness of all the galaxies in one sector of the cosmos - and then calculated how many stars they must have contained.
From that measurement, they proceeded to work out a figure for the whole of the visible Universe, which they believe is much more accurate than previous estimates.
That figure - presented to the International Astronomical Union conference in Sydney - is the kind that really can be called astronomical: 70 sextillion, or seven followed by 22 zeroes.
That is more than the total number of grains of sand in all the Earth's beaches and deserts. But that is only the stars in the visible Universe within range of our telescopes.
Dr Simon Driver, of the Australian National University, says the actual total could be much, much bigger still.
It says in Genesis 1 v16 “He made the stars also”
Just five words and yet the evidence so amazing. Creation or evolution….it matters not “He made the stars also”
Yet even greater, the love of God has been revealed to us in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Guest: Peter French
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: July 24, 2003
Ths relates to the letter recently by someone in Sigleton Australia commenting on the peebs invading her City.
Highway access approved for Donnybrook prayer chapel
Tuesday, 15 July 2003
Work is proceeding immediately on a new church facility at Donnybrook following development approval at a special meeting of Lithgow Council on Friday evening.
The prayer chapel is being constructed in portion of the Fairview Estate by the Exclusive Brethren.
It was the subject of a good deal of opposition in the surrounding residential area, with a petition based mainly on traffic concerns in the narrow streets.
However Friday's meeting was told by Environment and Planning Manager Andrew Muir that the traffic problem has been overcome with the agreement by the RTA to permit access from the highway for chapel traffic on a 'left turn in, left turn out' basis.
Mr Muir said yesterday that the chapel application had highlighted the problems for the rapid residential development in that area with the only access available at the entrance to Strathlone Estate, the first of the Donnybrook subdivisions.
As a result Council will require the developers to address access issues before any further residential estates are permitted in the area.
One option already suggested in a concept plan is for a new road to be constructed over the saddle of the mountain to link the Donnybrook subdivisions with another new development of between 30 and 40 blocks planned for the East Street area of South Littleton.
There is also the prospect of a currently unformed road being developed to create a new intersection opposite the Lithgow Hospital but this would necessitate agreement being reached with private landholders.
"The main issue is certainly a secondary access to that area, for emergency purposes as much as for convenience,” Mr Muir said.
Guest: bb
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: Sydney, Australia
Date & Comments: July 24, 2003
To Kate Teasdale July 23
Be aware of the people moving into your area. They are Exclusive Brethren. They think they are "exclusive" over all others. They may put on a innocent face, but underneath they are as hard as nails and would do anything to cut you down as they think all others are "Wordly Scum". Their world revolves around money which then earns them a power position in the church. I hope they do not build a church next to your house as the gatherings start at 6.am on a Sunday Morning. Doors slamming, children calling out loud. Good Luck. Keep us informed as to what is going on. Just remember that they think they are better than you and have ripped apart thousands of families.
Guest: BBxx
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Reading, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 25, 2003
Bruce Almighty, If you havent seen the film yet you havent laughed. Its about a Guy called Bruce who gets the chance to play God, sounds familiar I hear you say. Supernaturally supercharged, Bruce takes on TV, landing the epithet 'Mr Exclusive' for his astounding stories. But power and popularity go to his head.
One of the film's best features is the way it equips the Lord to deal with the world's spiritual demands in the 21st century. He now has every modern appliance including computers and phones and it's by use of a pager that God answers Bruce's plea. God's phone number (776-2323) just so happened to be an actual phone number in many US area codes. So some stupid idiots decided to call that number up, asking for God. Owners of that number were (and still are) constantly bombarded with calls. The same thing has started happening in the UK.
The Brethren even get a mention as Bruce tries to get a group of Brothers to mend their ways.
"Bruce Almighty" may be too saccharine for some, but it's mostly a smart, surprisingly thought-through film, with a decent grasp of the theological implications of its idea. In the script department I was a bit surprised at how well thought out it was. When it came to preaching to the audience it doesn't exactly heat a Bible up to 450w and force-feed chapters and verses down your throat.
Blasphemous? No way, this is a pro-God movie down the line.
Guest: Wayne Rumsby
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: Toronto, Canada
Date & Comments: July 25, 2003
I grew up in Montreal with a bretheren group (Newman Place Gospel Hall) and only discovered the power and influence of the movement after moving to Toronto at the age of 30. The movement in all of its many fractured pieces employs the same modernistic methods to ensure purity of truth and to thereby protect itself from defilement. It wasn't until I left the truth that I was able to see that the truth was nothing more than an empty system designed to protect itself from "the world". The key ingredient was fear. Although the group in Montreal was nothing like the Taylors it employed many of the same techniques. I'm glad to say that I survived with my faith intact.
Guest: Fran
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 27, 2003
To the person who responded my request for info about Elspeth Erksine
I am now married though Elspeth would have known me as Frances Smith. In the early 70's, I worked at the Open University in Leeds with Elspeth and sat next to her, sharing work with her as well as a lot of laughter and fun in that office. I was very interested to know at that time, how I could find a faith as real as the one Elspeth appeared to have and she was patient with my persistent questions.
I did find a faith in Jesus, and then joined a group which also went the way of believing that only we had the truth, all property & possessions were to be shared as in Acts 2 v 44- 48, and we were encouraged to work for one another and to limit our contacts with the outside world to a very minimum. In many places we had our own schools and generally didn't join organisations where "outsiders" were in charge. We were also so busy with our own meetings that we didn't have much free time to join anything! Radio TV and newspapers were strongly discouraged, as we were separated from the world etc We shared many situations in common with what I read on this website - probably the main difference being that we were strongly pentecostal and majored on speaking in tongues and using the charismatic gifts which I haven't seen mentioned much on these pages.
Sometimes EB’s who left in the 70’s joined us, so I always felt familiar with the things they spoke of since there seem to be so many similarities. I found I liked that way of living, and probably wouldn’t have left by my own choosing. Sounds familiar, I guess….
My reason for reticence is that I heard that leaders of the group we were in also trawl this website looking for clues about where we are and what we are doing! If you still have info you are willing to share, you can e-mail me. This website has been therapeutic for me in many ways even though we don’t share an identical background.
Guest: Cynthia White
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Vancouver, Washington, United States
Date & Comments: July 28, 2003
To Kate Teasdale July 23.
I suggest a self-education crash course in land-use and tax-exempt "church status" requirements. Question, question, question your local governmental agencies and elected officials until you are satisfied with every answer. If not, speak at public hearings. Ask questions for clarification if you do not have a full grasp on the complexity of such matters. Endless questions, to the degree of being a pain in the toosh, if need be.
Democracies have an obligation to ensure "concerned citizens" are fully informed. Most "democratic" land use approvals, globally, are granted without meaningful, informed input or queries from regular citizens. Lots of local and national decisions are made legitimately without any comment from those who will be affected. That is a problem to be borne by all of us who throw "Public Notices" into the trash. As I do now.
However, I know better. One person, just one, can make a difference, influence decisions and ensure compliance with public agencies' or politicians' project approvals. First you have to educate yourself. No time for that? I knew nothing. I asked questions in-agency and at public hearings and learned and learned more and more. Problem was, the more I learned the more disgusted I became with a system constantly manipulated and major document inconsistencies.
Kate, at least ask unemotional, logical questions relevant to the project under review. It may cause a "continuance". If already approved, gain copies of all conditions of approval and monitor the site for FULL compliance.
Do not be intimidated or fearful.
Good luck, Gal. Go ask, ask and learn, learn! Then, monitor and demand full-compliance with all signed documents and contracts.
Cynthia
P.S. Been there, done that, made a huge difference as a lone voice in land-raped Southern California.
Feel free to email me back-channel anytime.
Since this Guest Book is monitored I rarely comment here anymore.
Not that I'm personally afraid. However, I do not wish to cause additional pain to lambs I love who for decades have been mind-controlled by wolves in Jesus clothing.
Guest: Colin Johnson
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country: Longreach (ex Warrnambool), Australia
Date & Comments: July 29, 2003
I was withdrawn from in 1963, and have spent many years trying to come to terms with having no contact with my family. I also have been unable to reconcile the EB edicts to shun the world with Jesus' last command to "make disciples of all the nations". Praise God I have been contacted by my father recently and invited to visit him, which I intend to do at the earliest opportunity. While I disagree with his "talk", I have always totally respected him as he "walked his talk", unlike so many others that I knew.
Guest: Dr Brian Cowell
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Bradford, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 29, 2003
I understand that brethren accept the Gap Theory as an interpretation of Gen. 1. I think this is unscriptural. I prefer the theory that all the fossils were formed during Noah's Flood and the biosphere (i.e. all life) was in fact created in 6 literal days just as in Gen. 1. This theory has been around for 2 centuries. For more help get in touch with AnswersInGenesis.org This will give you plenty of information. OR write to me at
44 Aireville Rise, Bradford, BD9 4ES Tel/Fax 01274 582959 and we can chat. I give lectures in churches on this subject and I can send you my introductory lecture with illustrations by snail mail or just the lecture by e-mail. If you want, I can come to your Christian group and give a talk.
Guest: Stephen Rodgers
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Melbourne, Australia
Date & Comments: July 30, 2003
A great deal of misunderstanding over creationism and evolution, is a result of Quantum Disassociation. The latest advances in Quantum cosmology, are collapsing the old Newtonian deterministic objective paradigm:{cause and effect reality/mosaic law]. We tend to forget what Eistein said to Heisenberg; "What we see depends on the theories we use to interpret our observations." How we build the past, depends on the theories we use.
Consider Copernicus's heliocentric model of the Universe, where the earth is no longer the center. The tide is now turning back, while we are no longer the geographical center, we are the real center as we give the Universe it's Meaning. To utilize Planck's constant of quanta, we have to admit that the whole problem of the Universe, is caused by YOU, in your own subjective mind. And as in Herman Weyl's observations, the whole fractal universe dissolves into supra conciousness{God/Real Observer).
So then the idealist interpretation of the Sabbatical Creation recognizes this dynamic aspect of the past, as the Picture in the Divine Mind in Gen 1. Within this Divine Supra conciousness, we have the creation story, within the mind of God there is no dichotomy, it is only the movement of man's mind that creates the disharmony of evolution and creationism. The Quantum reality is the Bible is the Book of Life, the real story of your life and mine. This realisation enables you to see your name written within this book.
While the ancient Hebrews in Moses built this hermeneutical bridge into an unsurpassed creation model, we who live not in a semetic culture 6000 years down from the arrow of time, have little concept of their mythology, culture and semantics, should be in awe of their account. But the real idea of Genesis, is the movement of God's creative act in your LIFE.
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Canada
Date & Comments: July 30, 2003
After seeing the "Everyman" video, where the brethren repeatedly speak of the "Recovery" and the "Assembly", I have come to the conclusion the more correct term for their position is the "Regression" which I think more accurately describes what has been going on for at least the last 50 years or so.
While no doubt they will be enraged by this, consider the facts:
On this basis, I suggest their position would be more accurately described as "the Regression" rather than the "Recovery".
Guest: Sarah Rowlands
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: London, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: July 30, 2003
Was interested to note BBxx's comments of 25 July ... it is very true what he says re the film - "Bruce Almighty".
We were in absolute hysterics, the film is hilarious, (I am a bit of a Jim Carrey fan anyway). There were some very poignant moments in the film which makes you stop and think about the peebs and their ways. It has been very cleverly directed, not without reason I'm sure.
I really would like the peebs to take a look at the film, (I don't doubt someone/some of them have already seen it!), I am sure it would make them stop and think. I sometimes feel they are missing the point...I thought Christianity was about a simple trust and faith in God and worship of the Lord, not about materialistic rules.
If you haven't seen it, go and see the film, its very good ..... especially if you need cheering up.
Ciao
x
Guest: Victor Congdon
Guest E-mail:
City, Country: Portland, Connecticut, United States
Date & Comments: July 30, 2003
Greetings,
In the interest of keeping the creation discussion going I shall impose on you some thoughts on the subject. Theories I have no interest in. Whether it is the "Theory of Evolution" or any other theory. Theories come and go. Pure science is different. Some of us have spent our lives in the endeavors of science and what we were really doing was simply documenting how God is God. We simply found out things that God has known about all along.
(EB's feared science and condemn those who study it perhaps because they fear finding out what God is really doing.)
But back to the issue. "And He (Jesus) is before all things, and in Him all things hold together." (Col1: 17) "…upholds all things by the word of His power." (Heb 1:3) "By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible." (Heb 11:3) "He spoke and it was done He commanded and it stood fast." (Ps 33:9) "He has made everything appropriate in its time. He also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end." (Eccl 3:11) The Bible says it - I believe it.
Feel your pulse? What makes the engine run that makes that heart pump operate? Why does the fuel you feed that engine make the engine run? Who can stop that engine? Those of us with heart disease may think about such questions but we all should think of who it is that has made you as you are.
Many years ago when studying what was called "Organic Chemistry" my instructor beginning a series of lectures on amino acids started with the statement, "In this study you shall conclude that there is a God." Now many years later this study of amino acids, studies of the proteins of life, has brought to us a limited knowledge of what is called the DNA molecule. (A 1962 Nobel Prize.) Reports these days abound with DNA topics.
Let me quote one part of the "DNA knowledge" we have today that will, as Peter Clark has reminded us, take us out of our armchairs of theory into the real practice of what creation is. I quote from Rick Warren's book, "The Purpose Driven Life."
"DNA molecules can unite in an infinite number of ways. The number is 10 to the 2,400,000,000 th power. That number is the likelihood that you'd ever find someone just like you. If you were to write that number with each zero being one inch wide, you'd need a strip of paper 37,000 miles long."
So up from that armchair of theories and speculations and get on with God being God and you being you. Based on the science known today there has never been anyone like you and there never will be anyone like you. God made you specially and just for His pleasure. So worship Him in your life, which is the pleasure He seeks from you. Be a contributing member of His family. Serve Him by serving His people and let the world know about Jesus Christ. Tell them that He is truly the Savior. He not only touched the leper but He healed the leper by His word. And oh yes, don't forget, He holds all things together, even the running of your heart pump.
"Worthy art Thou, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for thou didst create all things, and because of Thy will they existed, and were created." (Rev 4:11)
Only by grace,
Victor
Guest: Anonymous
Guest E-mail: *suppressed by request*
City, Country:
Date & Comments: July 30, 2003
Interesting to read the script re "North American young people forbidden to visit any locality in North America"...devotional levels seem to fluctuate wildly - clear indication that BDH has lost control in North America, and as is the norm, dumps the blame for his initial period of "great grace....fresh light" (brethren speak), ministry on everybody else, and walks away from the problem. As for the signatories on the script, an inside source from California reports that Terry Markham (who moved to LA from New Jersey) has recently been confronted with the