This page contains entries made between January 1, and March 31, 2003.
These names and addresses are posted to enable people to contact friends and loved ones. Please do not exploit this information for commercial purposes.
Guest: Oliver Bedford
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney, Australia
Date & Comments: January 1, 2003
Well, knock me down with a feather, in my lunch break in central Sydney I have just seen three Hales EB's (father and three girls) sitting at a table in a dining arcade and tucking happily into FOOD MADE WITH UNCLEAN HANDS. In my days in the sect (JTJr period) doing this would have had me shot at dawn the next morning. The only exemption was on aeroplanes, presumably because JTJr couldn't face up to a few hours fast in mid-air.
I was so fascinated by this apparition that I sneaked a look at their dress as well, hoping to see some shorts on the man (shock, horror) but the worst I could see was jeans. The eldest girl was wearing a maroon top and blue denim skirt and was the only one of the three girls wearing a blue headscarf over her long hair, while the younger two were wearing bows (only) on their heads, one blue and the other red. The eldest girl looked suspiciously made-up (definitely well-powdered and perhaps a little eye shadow) but at least had no lipstick or earings.
Mr Bruce Hales, what do you think you're up to, letting your local brethren disobey one of the elect vessel JTJr's most basic edicts ? Alternatively, you're simply losing control over them.
Oliver
Guest: Peter
Guest E-mail: peter10@btclick.com
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: January 2, 2003
Margaret Wilson makes a point worth noting, that in undoing the harshness they "are undoing JTJnr's ministry. It was he who taught the harshness"
We can go further and add that all assembly judgements in the last thirty years were only pronounced once they had been sanctioned by phone, by JHS (or an appointed deputy), and then in later years by JSH or an approved deputy.
Surely the present activities are therefore a condemnation of those who approved these judgements, the 'elect vessels ' themselves?
What happened to the penalty for speaking against the elect vessel?!!
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@ shaw .ca
City, Country: Victoria
Date & Comments: January 2, 2003
That commentary on food being prepared with "holy hands" takes me back a few years! To get to Vancouver involved a couple of hours on a ferry, and being a ravenous teenager, I would go down to the cafeteria and get a hamburger- which inevitably drew the long faces of the "wannabe" leaders of the day, and the question of "was it prepared with holy hands?"
At any rate "the cloud moved" [remember that one?] and eating on the ferry became ok, no doubt officially sactioned by a call to "New York" [how one phones "New York" I really don't know] Now that the "cloud had moved" [a very conveniant catch-all explanation for the whimsy of JTjr] the brethren were free to eat on the ferry, and when one of them asked me if I was going to join them for a hamburger, I very innocently inquired if it was made with "holy hands?" This was not well recieved, and I was informed by way of explanation "the Spirit wasn't currently stressing that right now" and I was on" very dangerous grounds" [which almost made up for turning down the hamburger]
In spite of the humour [at least I found it so, especially their discomforture at being questioned] it does point up how dificult these folks have it- they really don't know what is coming down next, what is right today is wrong tomorrow, what is wrong today may be right the next day, and it all depends on the whim of whoever happens to be the elect vessel. The scriptures call it"being tossed about by any wind of doctrine"
Guest: Tim Sims
Guest E-mail: timsims@blueyonder.co.uk
City, Country: Edinburgh Scotland
Date & Comments: January 2, 2003
I was asked to leave the Brethren in 1965. Until Sep 2002 I had very little contact with my family (2 brothers & 3 sisters, mother and father). In Sep 2002 my father along with the local leader made contact with [me] to apologise for the way in which I had been treated. Over the last few months I have been able to speak with all my brothers and sisters on the phone. I was also able to visit my parents' house and meet up with all my family again. I am not currently in the brethren so this is quite a change in thinking on their part as to pepole who have left. I am now getting regular phone calls and being asked to visit my parents' house and bring my girlfriend who also is not in the brethren. Although while I am there they will not eat or drink with me they are quite happy to sit with me and provide me with refreshments.
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Date & Comments: January 2, 2003
To All
I posted a message on here a couple of weeks ago about me joining the Exclusive Brethren's. I have never been a member of this Religion, but I am still willing to join.
I work with a couple of guy's who are members of this Church. They are happy that I am joining the Exclusive Brethren. There rules don't bother me at all. I have had rather alot of time in changing myself to this for which I am confident I am making the right move.
Also to Oliver Bedford. I am genuine. I am aware what I am doing, which is my choice. Because the Exclusive Brethren Religion didn't work out for some people, it may not mean it will not work out for me.
Guest: Guy Wilson
Guest E-mail: oldbeancounter@hotmail.com
City, Country: Tunbridge Wells, Kent, UK - Ex Margate and Bermuda
Date & Comments: January 3, 2003
RE: “Profane vain babblings shun” – II Timothy 2 v 16 (The Brethren’s famous charter chapter)
In the 1960’s I grew disenchanted with the teaching being promulgated. I sat in meetings and made my own notes and jottings in the back of my JND bible. Here are some of the comments attributed to the infamous leader of the day, JT Jr. himself:
“Heaven will be one big laugh” – quote by John Devenish (Philip Woodcock’s father in law) at Beckenham on Oct 27 1968.
“The resurrection of Christ was the biggest laugh ever” – quote by Keith Groombridge in 1968 (Keith was then aged 20 and my best friend until 1966). I spoke to Keith about three years ago for 20 minutes. He constantly asked me if JT Jr. was a pure man. Poor Keith.
“Christ was received into heaven in a most hilarious way” and “The angel sat on the tombstone and laughed, he laughed!” both quotes by Norman Millard of Bromley (since out) on March 23 1969
“The man of God is our introduction to Christ. You see how he acts, and that is your introduction” - quote by Bob Fleck of Bromley (Robert Stott’s son in law)
If only the brethren would read the rest of II Timothy 2 instead of pumping verse 19 only!
Guy Wilson
Guest: Rod Wilkins
Guest E-mail: wilkins@austarnet.com.au
City, Country: Mackay, Queensland, Australia
Date & Comments: January 3, 2003
Congratulations to Guy Wilson for having the guts to play the EBs at their own game and make these visits - I'm very much enjoying reading the reports.
It reminds me of a report I read about a young lady in the UK who visited a Jehovah's Witness place of worship, handing out free magazines and pamphlets and refusing to leave. The younger folk saw the funny side but the elders were not amused!
I wonder Guy, do you do requests? I could send you a list of people who I think need a visit. You could charge a fee based on your success - a basic fee for arranging an audience, a decent fee for persuading someone to leave, and a humungous fee for just thoroughly annoying one of them!
Alas, I'm not living in EB territory at the moment but next week I'm moving to Brisbane and I'm considering setting up camp at the EB meeting room carpark entrance. Does anyone have any suggestions as to appropriate material I could hand to them as they enter and leave?
Guest: Doug Holt
Guest E-mail: doogle_66@hotmail.com
City, Country: Brisbane, Australia
Date & Comments: January 3, 2003
Gday to all of you ex pb's.Seems like a lot of contact has been made recently from our families and...choke.......brothers!!!!
I have had three phone calls and two letters but I do resent it somewhat after all this time especially after all the rubbish we endured.
I have lived in a location a long way from any peebs until recently and in doing so had almost forgotten about them.I don't really have any hate left in me towards them so I will be taking positives only from any future "get togethers".
Have been out now for 21 yrs and will definitely NOT be returning.
Life's too short to be hung up on their twisted idea of happiness.
Cheers!!!
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
Date & Comments: January 3, 2003
Dear Mr Dick Wyman,
Please erase all my entries I have sent since last springtime. I will contact you further on when things have calmed down a little bit, you know what I mean, for example some trying to track down ex-ebs etc, so for the moment I don't want that my name or mails appear anywhere.
Thank you for your great work. Don´t ever give up!!
Hope you and your family have had a nice X=mas and a Happy New Year.
My best regards to you all and wish all the best
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
City, Country: Victoria
Date & Comments: January 3, 2003
Interesting recall by Guy- and backed up by names, dates,etc. The one thing I remeber well was after "the cloud moved" or " the spirit wasn't stressing that right now" any query about what was said [although strenuesly enforced at the time] was inevitably met with "did you hear JTjr.say that?" or it was taken "out of context" or, he was "misquoted"
Poor souls, they were tripping over themselves to be "in line with the current ministry" and when the party line changed, which it did frequently, they were all left scrambling to keep up, and trying to do the damage control thing on what they were doing last week.
I find it curious that in this latest ploy-the one subject that is off limits is JTjr.s behaviour- they still can't come to terms with that. They are willing [or they have been told] to apologise for almost anything- except they still maintain Aberdeen was a" mystery" [yeah, right!] One thing that this website is doing though- is aquainting them with some of the inside stories of JTjr, those closest to him-people who once were his strongest supporters [and Billie Peterson certainly qualified for that title] when they were faced with incontrovable evidence, did the right thing and faced him with it. Unfortionately, he couldn't deal with the fact that he was a human being,and even if he could, the power group wouldn't let him anyway, they knew all too well if he did, their whole system would come crashing down, and the brethren were subjected to yet another bitter division.This, in my opinion, is one of the major flaws with brethren, they put their leaders on a pedestal, and cannot accept that they too, are human, with all the frailties and weaknesses we all have. You've got to hand it to them though- they have a fantastic memory-it works when they want it to!
Guest: Max
City, Country: Perth Australia
Date & Comments: January 3, 2003
All the activity regarding the visits is very interesting. The fact that under Brucie Hales they will virtually accept anybody back, with virtually no conditions, smacks of desperation or a sense that things are spinning out of control. On the other hand, maybe the elect vessel has realised that everything past 1959 (separation etc etc) is ANTI CHRISTIAN and it is about time that it was stopped. If there has been this realization then well done Brucie!!
Guest: Anon
City, Country: NA
Date & Comments: January 3, 2003
Here is another quote from JTJnr. (circa 1966?)
"Hang on to my coat-tails, I'll get you to Heaven".
Guest: Josephine Lacey (nee Twinam)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Eastbourne,East Sussex,UK
Date & Comments: January 3, 2003
Guest: Toad
Guest E-mail: toadhall@fastmail.fm
City, Country: Sydney
Date & Comments: January 3, 2003
Oliver Bedford needs to remember that in the EBs, all us animals are equal, but that some are more equal than others.
Guest: Anon
Date & Comments: January 3, 2003
Can you not see what the hanky heads are doing?? Coming to visit you to say Sorry!! They don't even know what they are saying sorry about.. Then everything is supposed to be sweet.. Ask yourself. What is their motive? They come with a family member. This is absolutely disgusting ,
dangling a family member in your face.
Once they have you , they will close the doors once again. Once they have their numbers up again.
They are nothing but evil, hypercritical, family destroying, using [illegitimate children]. There is nothing nice about them. Don't be fooled by their pathetic little stunts.
I have remained anon because I further don't want to get three girls in the [barnyard waste]. Three girls and I know who they are and can name them. They were about 6 to 8 weeks ago in a pub on a Saturday night. One, a smart little stuck up little maddam, in jeans and a short top was all over the guys. One has a tv and one has a cd player.
The smart one was seen by my friend giving people the fingers and saying " f" you out loud down the main street.
They seem to have the intelligence of a monkey. Not very bright. I find this behaviour disgusting. I certainly don't want anything to do with these people. I haven't had my visit yet and when I do, my husband can't wait to tell them what he thinks.
cheers
Guest: Wesley Franzen
Guest E-mail: macfootball76@yahoo.com
City, Country: San Antonio, USA
Date & Comments: January 3, 2003
I just wanted to notify anyone who wants to know that my e-mail address has changed to macfootball76@yahoo.com.
Guest: Peter French
Guest E-mail: PJFrench@Celestial.com.au
City, Country: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia - ex Warrnambool 1982
Date & Comments: January 4, 2003
I read and I smile...and I wonder -
1. How many are 'really' deep down hoping that they get a visit, an apology, and the chance to restart back again?
2. How many would go back if the deception, corruption and evil of Aberdeen was admitted to and JTJnr 'deleted'?
3. How many would go back if everything was reversed back to where we were in the 1950's?
4. How many are not really game at this point to be 'really' honest about what would get them back into the peebs?
5. How much 'hankering' is there to sometime get back [a] into the peebs, or [b] get square with them?
Frankly, I have read with an open mind since they favoured me a size 10 in the rear end, and I have NO doubt that they have ALWAYS been a cult. I really don't care whether it is Darby, Raven, Taylor[s], Symington, or Hale[s] - they are unchristian and evil in intent and affect, always have been, and no Peeb-pope better of worse than the other.
So HOW can anyone really go back if they have ANY degree of judgement of the system that started with Darby? It was Popery from then ... and i feel a lot safer being a Roman Catholic than a peeb, and have proven what was often quoted that '...there are more truer believers in the Catholics ... '
- but then maybe the cloud has moved on ... I had forgotten that one :-)
- lets us never forget how we were sucked in and believed all of that sort of rubbish. Yes - Animal Farm to the "T" ... and we found out who the pigs were - let us NEVER forget that!
Contractor readers for the peebs - please report this back ... and tell them that if there is the slightest chance that some poor fool is thinking of 'visiting' me, save his time, and protect what little dignity that he may think that he has ...
Guest: Oliver Bedford
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney, Australia (ex-UK)
Date & Comments: January 4, 2003
Firstly, to "W Bradley" of Perth (Bill ? Wilberforce ?). W, if you've made up your mind, go for it. You'll soon learn. By the way, in my previous note I forgot to say you should burn your bathing togs (remember to get out of them first, as you do seem to be a few chapters short of a full bible) and shoot your pets if any (remember to hold the thin end of the gun away from you). I can't help noticing that you say you're joining "the Exclusive Brethren Religion", which is a pity, because the Christian Religion is so much better, with a particularly good "elect vessel", Jesus Christ. Frankly, I think you really are a hoax despite your protestations.
On more factual matters, it's interesting that Brucie is quoting his number of adherents in Sydney as almost 700 (Detroit, September). Given my memories of the large size of the "city" meeting in 1968/69, it's amazing that despite all the serious efforts to propagate large families, numbers are still so relatively few. There must have been a serious leakage (I mean of people leaving). And what about the South African immigrants ? Though to be fair, there are probably quite a few families who have been sent off to the bush to promote the sect in rural areas.
Also, thanks to Toad of Sydney for his comment. Yes, it did occur to me that the fellow treating his children to food made with unholy hands (and in the iniquitous city centre) might be one of the top guys and therefore beyond criticism.
Oliver
Guest: John
City, Country: Melbourne
Date & Comments: January 4, 2003
About the relaxation of rules under Bruce Hales. His approach will clash with the hardliners who advocate the "sue the bastards" and "treat them as though they are dead" approaches.
I see a major split comming; a bigger and better than Aberdeen split; due to modern communications the event will be well publicised rather than Aberdeen which was mainly contained within Scotland, UK. This will lead many to reconsider the nonsense that has been "preached" to them over the last 40 years.
Roll on liberation for the many!
Guest: Guy Wilson
Guest E-mail: oldbeancounter@hotmail.com
City, Country: Tunbridge Wells, Kent, UK - Ex Margate and Bermuda
Date & Comments: January 4, 2003
The Woodcock story continued from December 31st, 2002
I was amazed to receive a very cordial letter from Philip Woodcock this lovely snowy morning to let me know that, “having made enquiries, it does not seem possible for any contact to be made with Mr Bruce Hales during his visit this time, due to a very tight schedule, but we do expect to have him with us again a little later in the year”.
Philip admits to having thought and moved independently and failed to recognise Divine Sovereignty. Perhaps this is why he was shut up for a few months. Now that the thaw in our relationship has set in, I find him extremely pleasant, amiable, chatty, intelligent but, alas, hoodwinked from my perspective.
On my visit to him on December 30, I expressed deep concern over the way in which JT Jr. was eulogised even though he has been in his grave since October 1970. Philip very politely disagreed. He went overboard to be amiable about it as if he almost agreed with me but could not actually say so.
Since then I have dug out my five year diary 1966 to 1970 inclusive. Here is an entry for careful thought as it reflects the changing attitudes at that time.
Wednesday February 7, 1968 – Croydon City Reading.
“Had a city reading on Apostles. Mr Purdom and Dr. Roberts were trying to make Jim Taylor an apostle while nobody else would have it. It was really very amusing.”
(Bruce Purdom was father-in-law of my dear friend Keith Groombridge of Nonington/Canterbury and Dr Shirley Roberts (male specie) was one of the last of the medical professionals in the movement).
Philip Woodcock tried hard last week to convince me of the apostolic line coming down to JT Jr., Symington (who I thought was as dry as dust), John Hales (whom I never met) and now BDH. I confess that I did like W. Bruce Hales as he appeared very open and came across really well in 1964 at a meeting that I attended in London. He also encouraged youngsters like me to take accountancy exams so I began studying a few months later. Thanks Bruce, one good deed done. I owe you a beer.
I did not buy the “apostolic line” argument in 1968 (aged 22) and still do not buy it 35 years later.
I asked Philip to leave the dialogue door open and he promised to do so. I now have the promise in writing.
A note of thanks to all those who have added little pieces since I began this story. I hope it is of interest to a wider audience including those insiders who monitor the site.
Guest: Elaine Hanley
Guest E-mail: bobedhan@localnet.com
City, Country: USA
Date & Comments: January 4, 2003
Greetings, Friends! To Bradley W. in Australia: I have no doubt that you are genuine and desire to make the right choice. In entry 12/29 you state that you don't talk to your family. Although some families are difficult to deal with, 2 Tim. 3 warns "perilous times shall come and men be lovers of self, covetoous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, WITHOUT NATURAL AFFECTION" etc. You also say "I am deeply religious person". In John ch 3, Nicodemus was a Pharisee, ruler of the Jews and a deeply religious man. Jesus told him, "Except a man be BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God." You say you have peace regarding the decision to join the Exclusive Brethren. Have you PEACE with God? 1 John 5:11-13, verse 12 reads, "He that hath the Son hath life; he that does not have the Son of God does not have life". (ETERNAL LIFE) I can't imagine joining the EBs with 2000 rules, stifling bondage, but we all make mistakes. The most important thing is not to neglect your ETERNAL soul. "What shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his own soul?" Mark 8:36
Guest: Hannah Hutton
Guest E-mail: hannah.hutton@ntlworld.com
City, Country: Fleet, Hampshire, UK
Date & Comments: January 4, 2003
Note to Guy Wilson - I'm enjoying all your reports, but Bob Fleck of Bromley was not Robert Stott's son-in-law! Robert Stott's only daughter, Christine, is my mother and my father was Ben Bodman of Bristol.......
Also, I've been meaning to ask you, are the EBs being extra nice to you because of Margaret's lineage?
Regards,
Hannah
PS. We must be indirectly related now as I think your sister is my new aunt ;o)
Guest: A Current EB
Date & Comments: January 4, 2003
Bradley,
Have you thought this through properly about joining the Exclusive Brethren? I hope you are not being brainwashed by the Brethren you work with. I do believe that you are genuine. But your workplace is much of a concern to me. I think my self that they have got into your thoughts.
It sounds like you are positive in coming aboard. Please talk to someone about your intentions before you make your final decission. Take no notice of Oliver. Some members now have dogs and cats. So shooting them sounds a bit extreme. As he also put it that you are not "with it" I disagree with that. I think you are with it. But more confused.
Just don't get pushed into anything to boost their membership.
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Date & Comments: January 5, 2003
Mr Wymann
Could I ask you to delete my two notes I posted on this site. This my cause a problem with my joining the Exclusive Brethren.
Firstly, I came onto this website to ask for some guidance and advise in my joining the Exclusive Brethren. Did I get it? Well yes and no! I had a good read through some of the advise that was given to me, for which I thank those people for. But as for a certain braindead idiot from Brisbane who certainly sounds like a sandwhich short of a picnic, likes to point the finger at me as a hoax. Well I am sorry sir I am NOT. It sounds like you don't have any enjoyment in your life. So you give out sick advise to genuine people looking for real advise as your enjoyment.
I am sorry if you have been hurt by the Exclusive Brethren's. But that is by no means to drag me down with you. This is MY choice!
2.In regards to the Anon, That is all I have been doing (thinking). I will not discuss my work place on here. All I will say is that I work with very understanding people. I am aware what I am doing. I have 7 days to consider.
I wish to thank the mojority of you for your advise given to me. It is very much appreciated.
Guest: Guy Wilson
Guest E-mail: oldbeancounter@hotmail.com
City, Country: Tunbridge Wells, Kent, UK - Ex Margate and Bermuda
Date & Comments: January 5, 2003
Bob Fleck of Bromley
Sincere apologies to Hannah Hutton about Bob Fleck’s wife’s name. I thought he did in fact marry a Stott but perhaps it was Morton Stott’s daughter?
As to whether Philip Woodcock is being extra nice to me because of Margaret’s lineage (JT’s great grand-daughter) I do not know but rather doubt it. My dialogue began before Margaret came into the picture and attended a meeting on 3rd December.
In a roundabout way we are now related by marriage in that Robert Stott’s son Roger married Pamela Wilson (nee Howden) who married my brother Kenneth Wilson in 1966 and divorced around 1993. They have three children all living in Australia where Roger and Pamela got married in the Autumn (Fall for the American viewers).
Guest: Chris Jones (formerly Barber)
Guest E-mail: mangoye@hotmail.com
City, Country: Previously London, UK.
Date & Comments: January 5, 2003
What is the difference between an EB and a supermarket trolley? A supermarket trolley has a mind of its own.
Guest: Oliver Bedford
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney, Australia (ex-UK)
Date & Comments: January 5, 2003
I'm interested to see the comment by "A Current EB", 4 January, that "Some members now have cats and dogs". I remember very well the wholesale slaughter of pets that took place when JTJr introduced his "no pets" rule, though admittedly at the local vet, and not by shooting.
My father, who was a thorough-going EB but also had some humanity, took about two or three weeks to find a home (a nearby farm) for our border collie, and came under criticism for doing so (ie for not having her put down immediately).
This is yet another example of moving away from the ministry of JTJr while still holding him out as "our beloved" (ref B D Hales, Detroit, September 2002). More hypocrisy.
Oliver
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw .ca
City, Country: Victoria,BC
Date & Comments: January 5, 2003
I ran into my cousin and her husband last night at the store, and got the politically correct version of "apologising" for past wrongs, and an invitation to return. This was also followed by a treatus on while they may have "misshandled" cases, they were still right, because they alone represent the "assembly". This "positionally right " theory basically means that no matter what happens, they are always right, and you are always wrong-period.
I said I was very glad they were talking to us now, after so many years of turning their backs on us, but unfortionately this "new look" had come too late for their parents, they were with the Lord now. I reminded them both of the anguish they had caused. This was met by either glossing over, or outright denial- but I told them I was there- I had seen the grief they had caused.
At this point their two daughters came up, nice kids, 16 and 18, and the folks introduced them to me.I asked permission to ask them one question-"do you know the Lord as your personal saviour?" The older one simply said "no" and I told her this was the most important thing she could ever learn.Their mother, on hearing this answer, jumped in and said "of course you do". I then asked the younger one the same question, and she responded by saying she "didn't understand what I was asking." I will give the parents this- they were quite discomfitted by the exchange. Unfortunately, this is not unique-and entirely consistent with the answers [from] most of the under 40 generation.They talk freely about being in the "assembly", but when queried about their personal links with Christ-are most uncomfortable, or [don't] even acknowlege they know what you are talking about. What a tragic situation- and people are going back to that?
Guest: Elaine Hanley
Guest E-mail: bobedhan@localnet.com
Date & Comments: January 6, 2003
Greetings! Remember the entry back on page 25 someone had finally been converted to Christ and told an older lady their personal testimony. The individual responded very strangely in view of the fact they had been breaking bread about 40 years. She said, "Why are you telling me that? We don't care about that here!" A favorite EB/peeb verse was 2 Timothy 2:19, "The Lord knoweth them that are his;" (The Lord also knows those that are not His.) and "Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." Departing from iniquity is not bowing the knee to the "elect EB vessel". EBs should had bowed to Christ alone and crucified the flesh (PRIDE).
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: South Africa
Date & Comments: January 6, 2003
Some brethren have cats and dogs???
Please tell us more?
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: USA
Date & Comments: January 6, 2003
Does anyone think that (with all the recent contacts to the so called "outs") has something to do with an upcoming BBC television documentry on the Brethren that John Hales has been trying to put a stop to? The documentry is said to air this Spring and does not talk very well of the Brethren. Maybe they think that with all the contacting famlies, recently, this will not give them such a bad name in the eyes of the public.
Guest: Charles Turner
Guest E-mail: charlesandrewturner@hotmail.com
City, Country: London
Date & Comments: January 6, 2003
After nineteen years of silence and an almost refusal to acknowledge I exist, I am now starting to feel seriously harrassed by the Peebs. First the visit. Then phone calls suggesting I see my brothers and sisters. Then phone calls from my brothers and sisters. Then letters from other people: The last one telling me I had a responsibility to look after my elderly parents (Who happen to have four other middle aged children who are in and up until July this year refused to speak to me directly for eighteen years). The last letter pleaded with me not to burn bridges (the pot calling the kettle black - or what)?
Does anyone know how I can get them off my back for good without resorting to aggressive tactics? Their manufactured convictions and U turns absolutely disgust me. I've told them this but they still won't go away. They have developed a new form of crocodile skin.
It seems they have moved from stage 1 to stage 2 of their recruitment drive and I am worried that there are some sinister undertones to it, they are quite blatently using emotional tricks to destabalise people.
I am worried that they will soon try to start influencing my wife, (never been in) who couldn't even start to understand how appallingly they have behaved in the past. Does anyone know whether it is possible for a person to take an injunction out against the cult as a whole to prevent any further contact? I would be quite happy to spend a few hundred quid to get them of my back for good.
Plus to the people that monitor this site. If the PB's ever go on Television to express their case, I would be quite happy to tell the world what they did to me. It's not easy. But I have found telling 100% truth of the way they acted has turned hard men to tears.
If anyone can advise me on the legal position, please e-mail me directly.
Guest: V.Lovatt-Smith
City, Country: New Zealand
Date & Comments: January 6, 2003
My curiosity has been aroused having recently heard and read about 'all the visits' is, the question of how genuine is just saying 'we are sorry'?
Saying sorry means nothing if the motivation is not with pure intent.Just saying 'sorry' because they are being told to do so, doesn't stack up.
Being truly sorry is realizing, acknowledging and taking accountability the consenquences of the wrong doing done to the individial/families involved. Even compensating some people who had to leave their employment losing income and causing hardship would not hurt (I'm sure there's enough money around to do this).
Making up for other losses,such as losing children, husbands, wives, parents and siblings is not possible of course.
Just saying 'we are sorry' and that is that is not good enough.
Yes forgivness is required...but how can anyone forget losing their families???
It's easier to hate than to forgive...because that's our natural reaction to hurt. Forgiving takes much more courage and it twice as hard as hating, but in forgiveness is freedom.
Only God knows if the motivation behind all of the recent visitations is real and genuine.
He also I suspect understands if we are standing back slightly bemused and dare I say it 'sceptical'.
All genuine believers in Christ make up the 'body of Christ' not just certian groups of churches. All genuine believers in Christ are equal in the sight of God, He does not have favorites. He sees our hearts and judges us accordingly.
May 2003 bring us all a good year. Cheers.
Guest: Susan
City, Country: Qld
Date & Comments: January 6, 2003
I have read some of the web site with interest.
My Husband is ex-brethren and their are a few people on this site who are known to us.
To thoses who have moved on with their lives like my husband, you have the world at your feet.
For those who are still trying to find their way, may you find peace with yourself at sometime in this life. Continue to talk with your friends and families that are (out)for your search of happiness. For they are the ones who will truely understand.
I only understand what I have been told but never experienced. Bless you all
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: jkewer@dodo.com.au
City, Country: Brisbane, Australia
Date & Comments: January 7, 2003
I left when I was 20 (1974) and I have now been married for 28 years and have never looked back. Apart from missing my family, at least I know that my children will not have to go through the things that I did.
Guest: Guy Wilson
Guest E-mail: oldbeancounter@hotmail.com
City, Country: Tunbridge Wells, Kent, UK - Ex Margate and Bermuda
Date & Comments: January 7, 2003
Comparison of translations of the Brethren’s “charter” – just curious!
Until recently I had almost forgotten about II Tim 2 v 19.
JND puts it thus “Let every one who names the name of [the] Lord withdraw from iniquity”. Is this where the idea of being withdrawn from originated? It seems strange terminology to me.
The Authorised version puts it thus: “Let everyone that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity”. Whose iniquity?
The New Revised Standard Version puts it thus “Let everyone who calls on the name of the Lord turn away from wickedness”. This, (to me) indicates turning from one’s own wickedness rather than withdrawing from others that I think are evil.
The NIV puts it thus: “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness”. Likewise, seemingly and perhaps almost certainly one’s own.
Are there any theologians out there who can let me know the original Greek concept?
The three adjectives, 1 withdrawing, 2 departing and 3 turning all give somewhat different meanings. Has Darby therefore been the root cause of the problems, quite unconsciously, having been in his grave over 100 years?
Comments welcomed.
Guy Wilson
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
City, Country: Victoria
Date & Comments: January 7, 2003
re:2 Timothy 2,19
This is an excellent example of the brethren's interpretation and also taking a scripture to an extreme. The scripture is plain enough, no matter what version one chooses- turn away from sin, iniquity, unrightiousness- but- what constitutes"iniquity"? Wearing a wristwatch? Having a cat? Daring to challenge the leaders? Demanding scriptural verification? Or even a diferent view of some doctrine- those points that one may feel strongly about, but cannot with certainty declare them 100% valid- scripture says we see dimly now, but then face to face. So the definition of "iniquity " seems to be somewhat subjective- not a charge to bandy about lightly.
Same applys to the "eating " ministry- JTjr made that an issue back in 1960 and declared all "eating " was on the same level as the breaking of bread-without one shred of scripture to back it up. Indeed to declare such lowers the Lord's supper to the level of an ordinary meal
Corintheans 5 vs 11 clearly states
if anyone called brother be fornicator,or avaricious, or idolitor, or a drunkard, or rapacious, not to mix with him; with such a one not even to eat.
Notice how the specific sins are clearly listed-and also note they are sins that would affect the public testimony. The list is not open ended, for anyone to interpret as they see fit, or use as an abuse of power. What the pb's have done is take scripture out of context, apply their own reasoning to, and demand that all adhere to it, or they are "withdrawn from" It is an enormous abuse of power. The epitome of that was the Pharisees demanding the Lord's death on the basis of their interpretation of scripture. I also find it somewhat interesting that JTjr himself, on the testimony of numerous witnesses- would fit into the catagory [drunkeness] of someone we cannot associate with, nor eat with. Bit ironic, isn't it?
Guest: Peter French
Guest E-mail: pjfrench@carlyle.vic.edu.au
City, Country: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Date & Comments: January 8, 2003
Guy,
I appreciate your posting, and the invitation to respond. So here is my humble submission.
I think you would agree at some stage there is abundant evidence that he was quite consciously the root cause, rather than unconsciously, as you suggest.
Darby was totally convinced that he and only he could interpret scripture properly. He started this whole systematised approach off - nothing started with the drunken womaniser or his desciples. Darby broke off with his own family (they all 'went to Rome') after breaking off with the Church of Ireland. He may have disagreed with Newton or Mueller, but without a doubt it was his way or else. To justify his actions, he found verses like II Tim 2:19 and jiggered them to his liking. Intepretation was not enough, he had to literally alter the working in the bible, and it would appear that this was not an isolated instance. That is pretty heavy stuff - none that have followed him have gone that far!
Given his education and gift with languages, he found it relatively easy to convert the poor and uneducated to his beliefs, as they were rather easily impressed. If anyone challenged him, he either showed up their comparative congnitve deficiencies by brandishing his knowledge of biblical languages and his 'saintly' manner, or simply booted them out. The open brethren went on to become a true Christian religion, while Darby's actions inevitably resulted in a cult. Was he aware of what he was doing?
Does he remind you of anyone recent?
Guest: Anon
Date & Comments: January 8, 2003
2 Tim 2
Mr Wilson, Mr Clarke; this one has been debated here already: www.cloudnet.com/~dwyman/caws2.html
Guest: Bro. Francis
Guest E-mail: fra59e@yahoo.com
City, Country: California
Date & Comments: January 8, 2003
Taking fragments of scripture out of context is "par for the course" with Brethren. The overworked 2 Timothy 2 is an example. The fact that they rely on it so heavily, almost to the exclusion of all other scripture, indicates the weakness of the Brethren's position.
They ignore the fact that the Epistle to Timothy is an individual communication about individual conduct. It is not a guide to assembly conduct such as Corinthians etc..
The point of "withdrawing" in 2 Tim. 2 is that an INDIVIDUAL does it for himself.
Next, read the whole passage in context and it applies to withdrawal from two specific persons: Hymenaus and Philetus on a serious doctrinal issue. There is no hint that others than Timothy were to withdraw from them. Neither is it suggested that Timothy withdraw from persons who may not choose to withdraw from Hymenaeus and Philetus; on this point the Open Brethren apparently stand on firm ground.
Darby inserted in his New Translation the infamous clause about "by separating from them." That fragment IS NOT SCRIPTURE. It is Darby's ministry and is apparently an error. Darby added an unscriptural clause in his English translation to bolster his personal and wrongful theory of "separation from evil God's principle of unity." It's not. Darby was simply wrong.
Guest: Guy Wilson
Guest E-mail: oldbeancounter@hotmail.com
City, Country: Tunbridge Wells, Kent, UK - Ex Margate and Bermuda
Date & Comments: January 8, 2003
Curiosity on II Tim 2 V 19
My curiosity is not intended to bash the dead man JND over the head but to seek a theologian who can give me the Greek interpretation.
Churchill said "Say nothing about the dead save that which is good".
I have already had one or two e-mails about JND which are very informative and for which I thank the contributors.
Guy Wilson
Guest: Current EB
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: England
Date & Comments: January 8, 2003
Regarding pmclarke's entry about meeting the cousins on Jan 5th. I thought I could shed some light on what must seem like the tragic and baffling attitudes EB's have.
They are constantly being told the same principles, as follows :-
1. The "Assembly" is the only right group in the world - everybody else is lacking in one way or another.
2. The "Elect Vessel" is always right - no matter what.
3. If you do not understand do not question - you will understand in the end. In the meantime do as you are told.
This produces a number of different aspects to the E.B. character
1. Point number one produces a certain arrogance and refusal not only to accept other people But also to even try to understand tham.
2. Points 2+3 produces an unquestioning mind (incidentally one of the reasons E.B.'s don't go to university is so as not to give them a questioning mind. )
3. This combination produces all in all the following mindset - ''we have got it right we can now sit back and relax while we watch the rest of The World go to seed" -a total lack of depth - there is no need to search for real truth, we already have it! -and don't you dare question it !
This explains both the technical correctness of the parents and the lack of real depth with children.
What frightens me most is the ''Don't question" bit , this potentially opens the door to great abuse by leaders. For example B.D.H. has expressed sympathy with President Bush in relation to Iraq. Now, regardless of their own opinions all E.B.'s will hold the same view. It would be regarded as almost a sin to even moot another point of view!! Cult ?
This is a very poor and scanty analysis and I would be interested to see the comments of non E.B.'s and even E.B.'s.
Guest: Elaine Hanley
Guest E-mail: bobedhan@localnet.com
City, Country: USA
Date & Comments: January 8, 2003
Definitely ironic. Idolatry is also listed and what is setting up a man/doctrine level with Holy Spirit and Scripture but idolatry? As I understand it, departing from iniquity means examine and judge myself first. Besides 1 Cor. 5:11, there's 2 Timothy 3:5 and Titus 3:10 to consider. As for challenging leaders or demanding scripture verification, unlike pbs, the Bereans searched the scriptures daily in Acts 17:11. I should think little of self, more of others.
Guest: Alan Carvell
Guest E-mail: alancarvell@blueyonder.com
City, Country: Dudley, England (8 miles from B'ham City FC.!!)
Date & Comments: January 8, 2003
Since my visit to my brother Peter (in the pb’s), I’ve only had one phone call from him since! And I was out at the time, but Jill my wife (who has never been in the Pb’s) had a 1-¼ hour chat with him! He even suggested she goes to see him and his family! (She's just purchasing some needy essentials, 1. triangle piece of cloth for the head. 2 Long jean skirt. 3 A long scruffy matted wig. 4 Pair of black bovver boots. 5 Make up remover.) Will update you if she goes! More chance of her having tea with the Queen!
Now the new year is here, I’d like to suggest we run a sweepstake for 2003 as to who has the most entries on the site, as it seems some have nothing better to do than make entries about the day’s they had in the peebs, in the lead so far Guy Wilson, 23/12/02, 24/12/02, 27/12/02, 28/12/02, 31/12/02, X2, (total of the 2 entries 885 words! No I didn’t count them I used word count!! 1/1/03, 4/1/03, 5/1/03, 7/1/03. total 10, in second place pm Clarke, 18/12/02, 22/12/02, 25/12/02, 27/12/02, 30/12/02, 1/1/03, 3/1/03, 5/1/03, 7/1/03, total 9. Third place is jointly held between Margaret Wilson & P French with 4 entries each. I’ve been down the bookies today and had £20 on the nose that Guy should do it!
I’m not knocking the site, as I think it is brilliant, but it seems to have turned into a bible bashing log of late, which is what I left the peebs for! As I’ve said before get a life forget the past and what should have been, enjoy life! Take up a season ticket in Birmingham City FC. (next season only folks, sold out this year!) Go Skiing as I did over xmas, and you won’t have time to fret and worry about the past!
PS on your prayer mats on Sunday again please as B’ham have got Arsenal (League leaders) Help!!!
Alan Carvell
Guest: A P Swanson
Guest E-mail: swansontonycath@hotmail.com
City, Country: Stanstead Abbotts, herts.
Date & Comments: January 8, 2003
Guest: Richard Green
Guest E-mail: richard@greensubcastle.wyenet.co.uk
City, Country: Salisbury, England
Date & Comments: January 8, 2003
We see a leader who, by all accounts:-
Do we see a reformer?
Guest: Oliver Bedford
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney, Australia
Date & Comments: January 9, 2003
To Alan (8 January)
I always find your contributions entertaining and interesting, as also, in their different ways, those from Guy and Margaret Wilson, PM Clarke, and Peter French (to say nothing of Bro Francis). I suggest they shouldn't be deterred by your scoring (and of course I'm quite happy for this to add 1 to my own modest score !). Personally, I have quite enjoyed the discussion of the theological non-basis of EB "separation", especially as my own immediate family are still separating from me enthusiastically and apparently having no truck with this weak-kneed visiting/apologising stuff.
Also, genuine contributions from current EB's are usually interesting....and it takes some courage to run the risk of getting caught entering or leaving an internet cafe.
My money's on Arsenal this weekend, so I have to hope Birmingham lose (I doubt whether heaven will intervene). I did watch B'ham beat West Ham at Upton Park, London in October, with Stern John scoring two good ones.
Cheers.... Oliver
Guest: Brian Giles
Guest E-mail: bunterat55@hotmail.com
City, Country: Walton on the Naze, U.K.
Date & Comments: January 9, 2003
Guy
Sorry, I am not a theologian,as you well know, but I can quote from Strong's Greek Dictionary of the New Testament. The Greek word for withdraw (JND) depart (AV) turn away (NIV) is aphistemi. For the purist the e has a - over it.
Great!!!! now you understand. You don't????
Depending on context it can mean to desist,desert,depart,refrain,withdraw self.
These seem to indicate an individual act which is consistent with the whole section v.19 to 26. Confirming Bro.Francis comments. Hope this helps. Brian
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw .ca
City, Country: Victoria
Date & Comments: January 9, 2003
Alan-
[1] which bookie are you using?
[2] sorry, we're a rugby family
Guest: Peter French
Guest E-mail: PJFrench@Celestial.com.au
City, Country: Melbourne, Australia
Date & Comments: January 9, 2003
Guy,
I have been thinking further ...
If you read the Neatby book you'll find
"...Darby showed characteristic energy in putting his threat into execution.
He went from one place to another, seeking to enforce everywhere the adoption of his course towards Bethesda. Assemblies of saints one after another were placed under the bann [sic] of excommunication for no other sin than not being able to see that Mr. Darby was right, and Bethesda wrong. On reaching Leeds, he issued his lithographic circular, bearing the post mark of August 26, 1848, cutting off not only Bethesda, but all assemblies who received any one who went there.
Change the names and the dates and tell me who it reminds you of?
He was obsessed, in the purest sense of Obsessive-Compulsive disorder.
But wait - there is more ...
I also think the apostle Paul was similarly obsessed. Both men thought that others should emulate them, as the apostle said, "...be ye imitators of me as I also imitate Christ...". Both were also obsessed with the idea of Christ, rather than with the earthly work and sayings of the Jesus of Nazareth.
So Darby maybe thought that he was Paul? ... Paul though he was Jesus? ... just like some others we know of? So maybe this goes a long way back ... ?
Any similarities now?
I think one of Darby's worst legacies is the "last days" notion. How many more decades and centuries have to pass before people see through the doomsday prediction? Darby invented the whole concept called "premillennial dispensationalism". It's a theory built on very shaky evidence. The impact of the "last days" idea is that the brethren conclude there is no need for them to be involved in charitable works or outreach because these are the last days and the Lord knows those that are his. How many times have the peeb-popes made complete fools of themselves by declaring the end of the world? God is either telling them porkies, or they consult themselves in their closets :-)
Guest: peter
Guest E-mail: peter10@btclick.com
City, Country: Uk
Date & Comments: January 9, 2003
Have now heard that the activities of Henry Magahy have been repudiated. This provides a nice scapegoat for JHS.
Yet it was JHS who insisted that HM was a "fully delivered man" and "the link with FER in England". This and other comments are in print in the JHS books, and callers from the UK to JHS were often told to contact HM instead.
Brethren in HM's native city always knew he was a bit of a rogue , but attempts to convey this to JHS were met with a deaf ear, at best, and withdrawing from at worst.
Later, after HM's downfall, JHS, also in print, said that he had always doubted if HM was genuine.
Guest: Karren Brady
Guest E-mail: tickets@exclusivebrethren.co.uk
City, Country: Birmingham
Date & Comments: January 9, 2003
Many thanks for those comments Alan in Dudley.
So nice to hear from one with such a balanced viewpoint.
I take your point regarding the lack of available BCFC tickets for this season and suggest that anyone who who like one for the remainder of this season should contact Mr A Coulles who has has one spare due to work commitments on Saturdays. There again if he had not got work committments he would no doubt have golf interests to prohibit him from going.
Thanks for the hot punting tip. I shall proceed directly to William Hill and have £20 myself.
I can thoroughly recommend the Autosport International show currently on at the NEC until Sunday. Far better than football.
Guest: Gerry Spiers
Guest E-mail: gerryspiers@fsmail.net
City, Country: Worcester
Date & Comments: January 9, 2003
Alan.
Arsenal will have to be at their best to get past Farnborough in the FA Cup, so Birmingham will provide just the practice they need!! God is smiling on us in Worcester - both the football and rugby clubs are currently sitting atop their respective leagues! Ah bless.
Gerry.
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: January 9, 2003
Reading through the guestbook fills me with a deep sadness for the loss and hurt sufferred by so many, but also hope and joy for the many who have overcome so much. I am not an ex-eb.
I have come across eb's in a family line I am researching and have noticed that there are either few or no markings on their graves. I was wondering if this is common and if those with no markings had been withdrawn from?
I wish to stay anon for now as I have close connections to current eb's and don't wish to jeopardise the situation.
Guest: Iain Gibb
Guest E-mail: Iain.Gibb@campbell-lee.co.uk
City, Country: Grangemouth, Scotland, UK
Date & Comments: January 10, 2003
Just to re-enforce what Peter said on January 9, that if Henry Magahy's activities are now 'repudiated' (what a lovely EB word I had almost forgotten), surely even the most blinkered, obsessed, brain-dead EB must surely begin to see now that Symington also stands condemned.
Nobody that I knew had any respect for HM - indeed his mother, his brother and his sister in Belfast were all withdrawn from on Symington's orders because in a family feud they had stuck together against HM - and it was Symington alone against the almost unanimous opinion of UK brethren who promoted him.
Yet Symington was supposed to have apostolic authority and prophetic insight and remains untouchable! Orwell's Animal Farm has nothing on this
Regards to all
Iain
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: oldbag_2@hotmail.com
City, Country: NSW, Australia
Date & Comments: January 10, 2003
Toad, I agree with your email, posted on Jan 3rd "all us animals are equal, but that some are more equal than others." It would seem to me that, this is still the case.
Since being kicked out in the mid 1970's (still not sure of the reason) I have yet to have any type of "Priestly" or visit. Although some extended family members are currently receiving theirs. I'm obviously not high enough up in the pecking order. Should I feel jealous or just lucky?
To Oliver,
I don't know you, but I've enjoyed reading your posts. They have reminded me of the old days.
To our 27yr old mate wanting to join the EB's, are you sure there is no Exclusive girl involved?
To All other guests that have entered this site, I have been fascinated by all memories shared good and bad. This has been an interesting way to spend a Friday night - better than going to see a movie!!!
Guest: Rachel Moss
Guest E-mail: moss575@hotmail.com
City, Country: Oxfordshire U.K
Date & Comments: January 10, 2003
I left the PBs in 1981 when at the age of 17 I developed a mind of my own and discovered that the big wide world was not so bad after all!
My elder brother tried to convince me to go back for the first year or so but gave up when I was not prepared to live the life that they wanted.
My mother who is still in, wrote to me recently asking for birthdates and photographs of my three little girls, this was followed by a phone call from my brother who said they felt that they had been unaproachable over the years and I should feel that I could always phone for a chat, I have not replied to my mother's letter although I still miss her and it was lovely to hear from her, I would dearly love her to meet her grandchildren even though I am sure she has a hidden agenda. My children are aged 4, 2 and 6 months and the elder two would certainly wonder who they were meeting I would hate to deprive my mother of the chance to meet the children but I do not want them to end up being as confused as I was for so many years! Comments and advice would be welcomed!
Guest: Graham Frost
Guest E-mail: grahamfrost@hotmail.com
City, Country: Peterborough, U.K.
Date & Comments: January 10, 2003
Methinks someone is having a little joke with us. I believe Karren Brady is one of the top people at Birmingham City football club.
Now, would you trust a 'Karen' who spells her name with two 'r's??? It's almost as bad as having a familial line of succession!!
I hope all readers, including those still in the EB's, and those who have recently returned to the 'fold', are having a Happy New Year.
Best to all,
Graham Frost.
Guest: John Weightman
Guest E-mail: john@johnweightman.charitydays.co.uk
Date & Comments: January 11, 2003
It has recently come to my notice that one of the EB objections to the use of computers (never mind that they employ mercenaries to use them on their behalf)is the theory that taking the letters in the word "computer" and allocating them numbers times 6 (eg a=6,b=12,c=18 and so on) you come up with a total of 666, which is the number allocated to the man of sin in Revelation 13.
As this only works in English -so presumably you could get a Fench computer- I dismissed the theory as paranoid superstition on a par with astrology.
I had second thoughts when I applied the same logic to the name of the late JOHNSHALES.Maybe they're on to something after all.
Makes you think.
Best wishes to all
John
Guest: Oliver Bedford
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney, Australia (ex-UK)
Date & Comments: January 11, 2003
As no-one else has replied to "Suppressed by request" of 9 January (query about EB tombstones), here's my little piece on the subject.
For the first one-and-a-half centuries or so of EB-ism, it was the custom to place a quote from scripture on tombstones, such as "absent from the body and present with the Lord" or "to be with Christ, which is very much better". See the photo of J N Darby's gravestone in "Old photographs" in "Library" on this site - the stone has inscriptions galore.
Sometime after I left (1969), under the regime of Symington or J Hales, scriptural tombstone inscriptions were banned, and now all that is permitted is the name and dates of lifetime (see photo of J Hales's tombstone on this site under his name in "Contributions").
I wonder whether they have replaced Darby's tombstone with the politically correct version in some dead (no pun intended) of night operation.
My uncle Joe Boyt of Manchester and my grandfather Ernest Bedford of Amersham were both buried with quotes from the bible on their tombstones. I think this was seen not only as an assurance of their faith, but also as a witness to people passing by. Unfortunately, I think my father (died 1997) would have been given the cold and soulless new version.
The current EB leadership apparently cannot stand Christian witness on tombstones - perhaps they find expressions of faith in Jesus Christ unpalatable.
Just another example of what Ben Taylor calls somewhere on this site "progression in darkness".
Oliver
Guest: Gerry Spiers
Guest E-mail: gerryspiers@fsmail.net
City, Country: Worcester
Date & Comments: January 11, 2003
This is a fantastic website - we go from 2 Timothy 2 to Birmingham City FC in one fell swoop! What's the chances of that happening at a Friday night reading meeting!!! More bizarre links requested please.
Guest: Alfred Deans
Guest E-mail: winkie_deans@exclusivebrethren.co.uk
City, Country: Stourbridge, Worcestershire
Date & Comments: January 11, 2003
Hi Gerry.
Glad you like the new format. Can have a bit too much of this Timothy II bloke whoever he is. "both the football and rugby clubs are currently sitting atop their respective leagues!" you say but doubtless your cricket ground and racecourse in Worcester are no doubt under flood as is usual at this time of year.
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Brisbane,Australia
Date & Comments: January 11, 2003
In regards to comments from Gerry Spiers-a few visitors to this site could take a leaf out of your book,you certainly seem to have a life and a sense of humour,unlike some.
Fri night meetings were'nt that bad in Sydney,you could always go next door for a quick game of putt putt golf after church as we used to.
And next time you Pom's come out here for a game of Rugby League we're gonna kick your butts once again.
Cheers.
Guest: Cris Bell
Guest E-mail: seebee@xtra.co.nz
City, Country: Auckland New Zealand
Date & Comments: January 11, 2003
Hi Everybody, Just catching up on this site and just wanted to let ya know that we are getting on fine. Many of you will remember my entries back a few pages headed "2 Kiwis nearly free" then "2 kiwis really free". We left in June and have never looked back. The sense of freedom is unreal. We have never felt happier andnor have we ever felt closer to god than we do now. We are still in what is known as the "shut up position" and have had several visits and laterly visits termed as chin wags. They won't withdraw from us as it seems that nothing bad done these days counts as 1 Corin 5. It's all met by Galatians 6. My job is going great. First time in many yrs that I have not worked for peebs, and we have proved that the world is not the bad place that we were always told it was. Sure there are bad things that happen but like anything, if ya dont want it ya dont go after it.
Just a message to KA still in i Australia, just interested to know how you are getting on and have you left yet. Make the break as life out here is great. The stress free atmoshere is fantastic. We were offered all sorts of things to get us back like a trip to the USA and England, company car, mortage paid off, but too no avail. There is no price on freedom. We look on every day as the day the lord has given us and rejoice in him. Soo keep up the good work everyone.
Regards. Cris Bell
Guest: Hilary Tyne
Guest E-mail: htyne@yahoo.ca
City, Country: Peterborough, Ontario, Canada
Date & Comments: January 11, 2003
Does anyone know anything about John Patterson, from Manchester? I'd be grateful if you would email me if you have any information.
Guest: Oliver Bedford
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney, Australia, ex-UK
Date & Comments: January 11, 2003
Interesting comment from John Weightman about the words "computer" and "John S Hales" both giving the number 666, using the same basis of calculation.
This possibly throws some light on why someone painted the words "John Hales - man of sin" on a Sydney meeting room (the main one ?) a couple of years ago, as mentioned on this site at the time.
Oliver
Guest: Bill, Perth
Date & Comments: January 11, 2003
With reference to John Weightman's comments of January 11, 2003. JohnSHales totals 648 close enough eh?
Guest: George Hayward
Guest E-mail: george.hayward@maxnet.co.nz
City, Country: Wellington, New Zealand
Date & Comments: January 12, 2003
Responding to John Weightman and Oliver Bedford:
Don't get too carried away now! The 666 result only comes if every letter's numerical value is given the multiplier of 6 times its place number.
If you use a simpler basis, like a=1, b=2, c=3 etc, then the two phrases add up to only 111. Then you can arbitrarily assign whatever multiplier you want. If you choose 7 or 8, you can make the phrases to be 777 (perfection) or 888 (the new man)!
But this is only a frivolous curiosity, because the english alphabet has never, to my knowledge, been used as the formal basis of a system of numerical values. (Even the Roman numeral system I, II, III, IV, V etc, and X=10, L=50, C=100, M=1000, and a few others, doesn't use all the letters of their alphabet, so you can't find numerical values for every word.) However in the original languages of the Bible, Hebrew and Greek, the situation is quite different, because the respective alphabets do have numerical values assigned to every letter, (and not just in a simple sequence but in a pattern allowing larger values like hundreds and thousands to be expressed). The significance of the numerical values of words has been the basis of some very fascinating research into the biblical texts.
Blessings, -- George --
Guest: Gerard Rayment
Guest E-mail: gerardandmonica@blueyonder.co.uk
City, Country: Southend England
Date & Comments: January 12, 2003
Sorry about this Bill from Perth, but John Weightman was right: J[60]+O[90]+H[48]+N[84]+S[114]+H[48]+A[6]+L[72]+E[30]+S[114] = 666 Near enough?
Guest: John Weightman
Guest E-mail: john@johnweightman.charitydays.co.uk
Date & Comments: January 12, 2003
To Bill of Perth
The maths is as follows:
J 60
O 90
H 48
N 84
S 114
H 48
A 6
L 72
E 30
S 114
666
Regards
John
Guest: John Weightman
Guest E-mail: john@johnweightman.charitydays.co.uk
Date & Comments: January 12, 2003
You can, or course do almost anything with numbers and it means nothing except how wonderful numbers are. Anyone ever seen the filme "A Beautiful Mind"
Regards
John
Guest: Kate White
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: North Wales, United Kingdom
Date & Comments: January 12, 2003
I found the site very interesting. My parents were in the Jims until 1971 (when I was 1). Although I knew most of the disagreements and troubles I never thought it important. My father died at 50 of a heart attack - 15 years ago and my mother died at 58 of bowel cancer - 2 years ago. I had a telephone call from my Uncle (Mum's brother) when she died to check that she was to be buried not cremated!!! Just recently my Uncle and Grandfather (91) have decided that they can have contact with me and my 2 sisters which I believe to be a new directive in the Jims so decided it was about time I knew more about it all.
Guest: john
Guest E-mail: filter@fsmail.net
City, Country: England
Date & Comments: January 11, 2003
Are the BBC showing a doc on the peebs?
I've been told it'll be shown in March on BBC 2
but what time and day?
If anyone knows can you please email me at filter@fsmail.net
Thanks for any help Bye for now
Guest: Harriette Shurtleff
Guest E-mail: hs54128@alltel.net
City, Country: Gothenburg, NE USA
Date & Comments: January 12, 2003
Have the Exclusive brethren been repressing the normal human memories of their adherents?
Recently, I, too, have had visits from 2 of my 3 EB grown children.. Hadn't seen my daughter from Oxbow. Sask for 27 years and of course, never met her husband and children. I tried to keep the short conversation "light" but when I reminded her of how much she used to giggle, she replied that she didn't remember her childhood. Comments, please. Someone tell me more about the upcoming documentary on BBC this spring. A great big thanks to Dick for this site.
Guest: John Weightman
Guest E-mail: john@johnweightman.charitydays.co.uk
City, Country: Berwick upon Tweed
Date & Comments: January 13, 2003
George
My point exactly. Using a numerical system and attaching it to the English language is ignorance in the extreme. My comments about having second thoughts were made entirely with tongue in cheek.
John
Guest: bc
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: January 13, 2003
In regard to the BBC doco I assume this is to be shown in England only? I also would be interested to get a copy or tune in if its shown in Australia. Any details please.
On another note, the people who have been thinking of leaving have been quiet lately, have they left and are in hiding or got cold feet I wonder.
Guest: Sarah Rowlands
Guest E-mail: rowlie76@hotmail.com
City, Country: London, England
Date & Comments: January 13, 2003
Just wanted to tell Mr. Carvell how sorry I was for his team's defeat yesterday !! I am no Brummie fan but I can understand how gutted you must feel.
When you support Tottenham, it's a bane to see Arsenal score !
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
Date & Comments: January 13, 2003
To Alan Carvel, Jan 8 entry: I'd forget the past if I could. It seems one can't even hear a message in a Baptist church but be reminded of peeb deficiencies. The guy talks about how there should be unity and love among us. We only need to agree on basic fundamental doctrines, but unity, love, and peace should characterize us. That's strange but I can't recall unity, peace, and love in the peebs. In fact, I think it was nonexistant. I remember criticism, dissension, disputes, mocking. They would quote Psalm 133:1, "Behold, how good and pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!" They knew how to say great things but couldn't put them into practice. When I finally die then I'll be able to forget, praise the Lord Almighty, my Savior.
Guest: Roger the Dodger
Guest E-mail: fishwick@exclusivebrethren.co.uk
City, Country: Hall Green Birmingham
Date & Comments: January 13, 2003
In response to Sarah Rowlands concerned posting.
Mr Carvell has allegedly had a complete hard drive failure on his PC. He would like to thank all his avid followers for their concern in his time of sorrow.
It will be interesting to see how long it takes to get his PC fixed. Had Birmingham won I imagine it would have been fixed quite quickly and we would all have had the gloating details. Might have been better for Birmingham if the floodlights had failed completely rather than delaying the start of the match for an hour.
Guest: Alan Carvell
Guest E-mail: alancarvell@blueyonder.co.uk
City, Country: Dudley, Birmingham, England, near the Wolves, West Brom & the Villa!
Date & Comments: January 13, 2003
Well, well, what happened to all your prayers for Birmingham FC then?! ½ hour late with the kick off due to the lights failing, it seemed Heaven wouldn’t intervene, so the Devil sure had a go!
I had a few private e-mails from EB’s saying Arsenal would do it, including Oliver Bedford, OK I’ll accept defeat this once! I’ll say this once & only once, (this hurts!!) Arsenal were BRILLIANT and by the way Oliver you are sneakily heading into the lead with my sweepstake!
Thanks Sarah Rowlands for your comments 13/1/03 but believe it or not, I did not feel gutted, I thoroughly enjoyed it, it brought back memories of my childhood days in Rathbone Rd. meeting room, listening to the preaching’s there and the sheer enjoyment I got from that!!!!
Also thanks to Gerry Spiers comments, but come on, Worcester & Birmingham? we may only be 30 miles away but you can’t compare Rugby & Cricket with FOOTBALL!
I hope I have not offended Mr. pm Clarke & Guy Wilson etc. with my sweepstake comments, as it was not my intention, but it has all gone quiet! (Bet they went to the Blues v Arsenal match to see what all the fuss was about!?) I’m starting to worry now I might be moving up the league in the sweepstake my-self! (More than we can say for B’ham City FC.!)
All the best from Steve Bruce, Karren Brady (with 2 r’s) yes she does have a nice r’s!
Alan Carvell
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw .ca
City, Country: Victoria
Date & Comments: January 13, 2003
One thing I have noticed, and it seems to be consistant, is the way pb's act- completely programmed- it's almost like attempting to have a conversation one of those telephone answering machines.
They seem to have a canned patter[ almost rehearsed]"we-may- have- been - wrong-in-how-we-treated--you-but -we -are-still-right- so-you -should-come- back-into -the-assembly" There's no point in asking them what changed their mind- or if they have any concept of the grief they have caused.There's no point in asking them how they reconcile the "elect vessell" of yesterday telling them one thing- which they unquestioningly did,with what the "elect vessel"is telling them to do now-even though it is completely contradictory.If they are right now, were they wrong before?
This lemming like behaviour is a complete contradiction of scripture- where the emphasis is on the individual first, then the collective second.There is no such thing as "group salvation"- it is extremely personal"if any man hear my voice", "repent and be baptised, each one of you". Somehow all this has been submerged by mass mentality- really mind controll.The startling thing[ at least to me] was you don't realise it untill you're out of it. How could anybody in their right mind go back to that?
Guest: anon
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: January 14, 2003
For aspirant numerologists, rather than spending long nights with a calculator and the Kabbala, you might like to try lcamtuf.coredump.cx/evilfinder/
With apologies to the host of this site, it came up with the following:
Thus, "dickwyman" is 45355.========================
**** THE PROOF THAT dickwyman IS EVIL ****
D I C K W Y M A N
4 9 3 11 23 25 13 1 14 - as numbers
4 9 3 2 5 7 4 1 5 - digits added
\____/ \____/ \____/ \____/ \_/
4 5 3 5 5 - digits added
Add 18, the symbol of bondage - the result is 45373.
Turn the number backwards, divide by 38 - the symbol of slavery. The number is now 983.
Subtract 52 from the number - this is the symbol of approval for the sin, written backwards. It gives 931.
Turn the number backwards, subtract 21 - the symbol of the greater sin. The number is now 118.
Turn the number backwards, and add 23 - the symbol of death. The number is now 834.
This number, when read backwards, gives 438. This, written in octal, gives 666 - the number of the Beast.
Enough said - QED
=======================================
Rather convoluted, but not much more so than some other attempts one sees...
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
Date & Comments: January 14, 2003
Since we are now employing numerology, my submition is phrenology-the estimation of charactor and intelligence by the conformation of the skull. An ancient art, too be sure, but probably of similar value.
Guest: Mary
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: England
Date & Comments: January 14, 2003
QED, it seems to me you move in even more 'mysterious ways'. I suppose you have to, in order to try and get your point across. I, for one, don't understand it.
Guest: John Gibbs
Guest E-mail: mandy_gibbs@fastmail.fm
City, Country: Johannesburg, South Africa
Date & Comments: January 14, 2003
I received a call from my brother in Canterbury, England offering to help us get an ancestral visa to emmigrate to the UK. I imagine they would have a problem "recovering" us South Africans by remote control. From what my brother said, it would appear that they see us almost as their "mission field" and that we should be "gathered in" before the Lord's comming. This would explain the apparent zeal and persistance they have shown with others on this site.
On the 2 Tim 2 discussion - In my view, this is a prime example of how the brethren have propogated erroneous teaching by taking half a verse out of context. The Firm Foundation in verse 19 is not separation. The foundation is salvation through the blood of Christ. This foundation has a double sided seal. The first, how we are to treat others - "the Lord knows those that are his" - don't judge others and the other side is how we are to deal with undesirable things in our personal lives.
Lastly, a message to the pommie football punters, I wouldn't put any money on your cricket team at the World Cup in SA next month!
Guest: Francis Mortyn
Guest E-mail: fra59e@yahoo.com
City, Country: San Diego, Southern California
Date & Comments: January 14, 2003
On January 18th please take a moment to reflect on the recorded dialogue: "Who do you say that I am?" "Thou art the Christ." "Thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build my church." . "As we watch Peter struggle with himself, often stumble, love his Lord and deny Him, speak rashly and act impetuously, his life reminds us that our Lord did not come to save the godly and strong but to save the weak and the sinful. Simon, an ordinary human being, was transformed by the Holy Spirit into the 'Rock,' and became the leader of the Church." --from "Lesser Feasts and Fasts." . January 18 is for us Anglicans' a day to remember the Confession of St. Peter. The Brethren miss much by rejecting the Calendar of Saints.
Guest: Angela Gulley
Guest E-mail: angelaotton@aol.com
City, Country: Reading, Berkshire,, England
Date & Comments: January 15, 2003
Angela Otton (nee Gulley)
Guest: Oliver Bedford
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney, Australia
Date & Comments: January 15, 2003
A few weeks ago, Margaret Wilson recommended George Orwell's "Animal Farm".
Here's another fantastic book - "Communism", by Professor Richard Pipes, an expert on Russia, published last year. It's not very long, only 150+ pages, but a riveting read. You can order it from Amazon.
One very striking section is his account of the difficulties faced by Stalin's immediate successors, who knew that Stalin was seriously over the top and had run a dreadful system, but could not publicly disown him and his system because they derived their own legitimacy from that system. Then Kruschev moved somewhat in that direction. Pipes describes the amazement of Gorbachev and Yeltsin on visiting the West and finding they could have open and honest discussions with people. Eventually, of course, the closed system collapsed as foreign ideas filtered in, the iron discipline could no longer be maintained, and Gorbachev realised that Soviet Communism was finished. But the time that elapsed between Stalin's death and the final collapse was almost forty years.
Food for thought......
Oliver
Guest: Phil
City, Country: London, UK
Date & Comments: January 15, 2003
Dear Anon of 14 January 2003
The site you refer us to demonstrates the stupidity of numerology. If one types in "The Quick Brown Fox" the answer is that such is evil. The same probably applies to all the Disney characters including Snow White.
Guest: John McMullan
Guest E-mail: dove@oberon.ark.com
Date & Comments: January 8, 2003
To the Guest who is anon Jan5.
On the matter of deciding to join the Exclusive brethren. All my family are in the EB and I was raised in it also.They are forbidden to have any contact with me for the past 40 years and I am talking about four brothers and two sisters plus many children whom I have never been allowed to meet. I am a Christian now and have put my trust in The Lord Jesus Christ and He has accepted me into His Church which is the Body of Christ made up of all true deciples of Jesus Christ. My advice to you is to be sure of your own salvation which does not depend on which group you join but solely on the Lord Jesus Christ. Please ask him about your decision IN His Name John McMullan
Feel free to write to me directly as I understand your reason to be anon on the Internet
Guest: Jill Mytton
Guest E-mail: j.mytton@uel.ac.uk
City, Country: Beckenham, UK
Date & Comments: January 16, 2003
The other day I did a quick search using google.com with the words "love bombing" and cults. From the first few websites listed I came up with these quotes. Also there is a URL which seemed
interesting to me and given below.
I think the EBs are apology bombing us - the thing about bombing is that the person being bombed usually has no control over the dropping of the bombs. They may try to shoot the bombs down but even that is impossible if they don't know they are coming. The EBs therefore use surprise and an insistence on seeing them NOW.
Just a thought.
Here are the quotes:
The opposite of love-bombing is unconditional love. Love-bombing is highly conditional.
The cults will love you to death while you represent a prospective convert to their group. As a member a tight family love will surround you as you faithfully promote their cause.
However, when it is clear that a prospect will not join the group or a member voices doubts, create waves, or leaves the group, all love ceases.
Indeed scorn is immediately heaped on these individuals and remaining members are told not to have any contact with them.
Mind-control techniques such as love-bombing are designed to bypass a person's intelligence and especially his critical-thinking skills..When a... person suddenly receives an overwhelming amount of love and acceptance, it is extremely difficult for him to stand back and assess the reasons for this or question something he desperately doesn't want to have disappear.
I think that Love Bombing is a technique widely used to initially entice, and then to later control and manipulate. We don't have to be in a cult to be "love bombed", or not a big cult anyway. Love Bombing can be employed by one person to who wants to control another.
We all know the stereotype of the dishonest lover or abusive spouse who keeps their partner chained to them by frequent and often dramatic assertions of love. People get away with everything up to and including murder by convincing their victims that they love them.
Love Bombing: A mind control cult practices love bombing or false love. When you first join the cult you will gain instant friends, you'll be hugged and everyone will want to talk to you. For someone who is lonely or comes from out of town this is especially wonderful. However, after a while this "love" becomes conditional on your performance and/or you measuring up to the cult's unpublished standards. If you ever leave the cult then you know you will lose all of your new friends just as quickly as you gained them. Like an unhealthy marriage relationship, love is switched on and off to control. Of all of them, this is probably the most effective implement in the mind control tool box.
We are relational beings with the ultimate aim of regaining a relationship with the God who created us. It only requires common sense to see the power this "love bombing" tool could have on someone. We have all seen it at work in the cults, at work in manipulative relationships and at work as peer pressure in schools and society in general. This false love is a distortion of true love which is defined in 1 Corinthians 13.
www.comprehensivechristian.com/How-Cults-Deceive-People.html
Guest: Jill Mytton
Guest E-mail: j.mytton@uel.ac.uk
City, Country: Beckenham, UK
Date & Comments: January 16, 2003
I have been very concerned over the recent activities of the exclusive brethren. The apology bombing is only part of it.
Now I understand they are changing the status of some of those who consider themselves 'out'.
Today I learned that one person has had her status changed from 'withdrawn from' to 'shut up' without her permission. I also heard that an older couple previously withdrawn from have been 'restored' - yet they also were not asked nor do they attend the meetings.
I have repeatedly said that it is time we took control - isn't it time we let them know that we 'withdraw from' them?
Recently a friend quoted what he thought was a quote from George Orwell 'Whoever controls the past controls the future, [but] whoever controls the present controls the past.'
Jill
Guest: Elaine Hanley
Guest E-mail: bobedhan@localnet.com
City, Country: USA
Date & Comments: January 16, 2003
To Francis Mortyn, January 14 entry: The rock that the Lord built his church on was the answer that Peter gave to the Lord's question, "Who do you say that I am? Peter answered, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God." You admit that Peter was a sinful man. Why would the Lord Jesus Christ, the sinless Son of God build his church on a sinful man? In Peter's first epistle 4-8 he writes, "And coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected by men, but choice and precious in the sight of God, you (only born again persons John 3:3) also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. Continuing verse 6 quotes Isaiah 28:16, "BEHOLD I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER STONE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM SHALL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." This precious value, then, is for you who believe, but for those who disbelieve, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER STONE," and, A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE", for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word and to this doom they were also appointed." Hope this helps and I know there are others on this site able to say much more.
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
City, Country: Victoria, BC
Date & Comments: January 16, 2003
We should not be deceived by this "Age of Recovery" -it is nothing more than further proof of the PB arrogance and pride-as if they have the exclusive right to extend or withold "fellowship" or the "assembly". Their despising of the work of God in believer's souls puts them at variance with the Lord, and they are so blinded they cannot see it.
I find it interesting how defensive they become when asked about their personal links with the Lord [this is appearently not a priority] They are quite uncomfortable when questioned about personal salvation, and take umbrage at the suggestion that it is a distinctive possability many of their young people have no personal links with the Lord at all. Indeed, this is not surprising-it would be quite surprising to find it otherwise- for the last 40 or 50 years or so,the sole preoccupation has been "issues"- not the gospel
Indeed, the PB claim that they have to "know who they are breaking bread with" takes on quite a diferent light when it is suggested to them that they are in fact breaking bread with unbelievers- their own children- and even they themselves, while claiming to be the "assembly" have no link with the Lord themselves. No, these poor souls are merely exibiting just another example of "cult " thinking and action- the "apologies" are not sincere- because an apology without repentance is no apology at all. When the cloud moves [the next whim of the elect vessel] they will jump to be in line with the "current voice of the spirit" no matter what that may be. All you can be reasonably assured of is it won't be based on scripture. However, no matter what their agenda is, the Lord is above all- and they are finding out things and hearing things they most certainly hadn't planned on- and who knows, maybe their consciences will begin to work, and they will come to a knowlege of the truth afterall. We can only hope and pray for them [and even telling them we are praying for them quite unnerves them- how could that possably be?]]
Guest: John
Guest E-mail: filter@fsmail.net
City, Country: Hillingdon, England
Date & Comments: January 16, 2003
I trying to find out when the BBC IS showing
the doco on peebs. It was due to be showen in Jan
but the BBC had to change it to March, I think
somone must know?
Any information would be most helpfull Thanx...........
John
Guest: Naomi Robson
Guest E-mail: nlrobson@telus.net
City, Country: Calgary, Canada
Date & Comments: January 16, 2003
Reading through some of the entries and find it hard to believe anyone would return to the cultish behaviours of this group. I certainly haven't been contacted and there don't seem to be any actual names of people that have gone back. Being wound up constantly in rules and regulations and who's doing what, where and when and reporting all these wayward folks, is exactly what the Devil wants....keeps everyone from praising our Savior and leading others to Him. Too bad all of us can't experience as the Gaithers wrote in their wonderful song, "He touched me, and now I'm whole".
I'd be glad to hear from anyone who wishes to send me an e-mail. God's richest blessings to all. Naomi
Guest: Debbie Cantley
Guest E-mail: debbie@eastcombe.com
City, Country: Gloucstershire, UK
Date & Comments: January 16, 2003
I have just returned from holiday to discover that my parents made an unannounced trip to see me (a 200 mile round trip), fortuneately whilst I away. They left a letter saying they "wanted to put things right".
I considered the situation for a couple of days and then called them. I asked my father if they wanted to talk to me as my parents or as members of the brethren. He hesitated and then said "Of course, as your parents". I have agreed to meet my parents again (with my 2 sisters also there) on Monday 20th.
After this telephone conversation I decided to search the website for some information and was delighted to find this site.
I am horrified by the reality that is dawning on me. I have been out for 21 years and until now not met anyone else who left or has had similar experiences. Until now I have lived with a dreadful millstone of guilt - now I feel a mixture of anger and pity. I believe we should all be responsible for our own actions, although I wonder if there is a case for diminished responsibility because of the pressure some are are under.
Having read about so many other "visits" I cannot decide whether or not to go. I would like to try and tell them "remember it was me who withdrew from you" and that they should be ashamed of themselves for their consistent acts of inhumanity and worst of all calling it christianity! I am curious to see what my sisters look like now, but what an emotional meeting it would be. I believe I am very strong, but I am not sure how easy it would be to take on four. I would really like to tell them that I will talk to them in 21 years time - if they have repented enough!
Comments/advice please.
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: January 17, 2003
To anon Jan 14th regarding numerology display that Dick Wyman is evil. This is typical of a PB mentality. Anything can be interpreted, twisted or whatever to come up with the meaning they want!
Guest: Oliver Bedford
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney, Australia, ex-UK
Date & Comments: January 17, 2003
To Debbie, 16 January
Debbie
I am copying this message onto Dick's site only because my direct email was rejected as "spam" (well, that's the first time in my life I've been called spam !)
I read your entry and sympathise very much with your feelings . Yes, I agree this site is very useful in showing us we are not "on our own". I think Dick Wyman is doing a great job.
The name Cantley rings a big bell. Maybe you are a granddaughter of Mr Cantley of Harrow, whom we knew quite well when I was young. I remember him and his wife and daughter coming to tea with our family at Amersham when I was about 18, so about 1963 (he was the Sunday evening preacher that day). I think there were also one or two sons, one of whom might be your father.
I haven't been visited myself, and don't expect to be. However, you might be interested to see the note I have contributed in "The Visits" ("Correspondence") about the experiences of a much loved relative of mine in England.
Best wishes
Oliver Bedford
Guest: Jill Mytton
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Beckenham, UK
Date & Comments: January 17, 2003
Re the BBC Programme
Being someone involved in this I had not heard that it was due to be transmitted in January. Originally it was to have been towards the end of last year. Currently there is no news about when it will be broadcast. An announcement will be made on this site when the date is known
Jill
Guest: Anon
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: January 17, 2003
Time will tell whether I'm right in this, but I suspect that the forthcoming documentary about the brethren is not going to have a major impact. Anymore than a documentary about some radical Hindu sect would cause much of a stir. No doubt all those involved will enjoy their 15 minutes of fame, but it will have your average punter reaching for the remote control.
Guest: Gerard Rayment
Guest E-mail: gerardandmonica@blueyonder.co.uk
City, Country: Southend, England
Date & Comments: January 18, 2003
BBC Everyman:The Exclusive Brethren programme
Like you say [anon 17 Jan] time will tell, but I find a huge amount of interest among punters if I ever mention the strange cult I was brought up in. Of course there are always a few total wasters whose brain cells cannot function beyond picking up a glass and tipping the contents down their thoats, but these types have never had a positive impact on society anyway.
Guest: Richard Green
Guest E-mail: richard@greensubcastle.wyenet.co.uk
City, Country: Salisbury, England
Date & Comments: January 18, 2003
Dick Wyman reports:-
“There have been two notable developments in BDH's first year of leadership. The first has to do with schools. … Now, wherever possible, BDH is moving to establish brethren schools.”
“The second notable development has to do with assembly discipline. As noted above, BDH inherited a sect whose defining characteristic is its willingness to eject anyone for practically anything. BDH has resolved to change this.”
Is it compulsory for the Brethren to use these schools or may they, if they wish, send their children to other schools?
If it is compulsory, what is the sanction for non-compliance?
Guest: Debbie Cantley
Guest E-mail: debbie@eastcombe.com
Date & Comments: January 18, 2003
To Oliver Bedford.
Sorry you got "spammed" I dont know how that happened! But yes I am from Harrow originally. My fathers name is James Nelson, my grandfathers name was Jo Cantley (I was very fond of him, he was a lovely man). He died from a heart attack suddently in his 50's.
Try emailing me again, I didn't know I could refuse any emails?!
Debbie
Guest: Sheila Seesahai
Guest E-mail: sseesahai@shaw.ca
City, Country: Winnipeg, Canada
Date & Comments: January 18, 2003
One of the things that always bothered me about being the daughter of Brethren (my parents are Tony and Elsie MacLachlan of the Winnipeg EB) was the fact that there was so much secrecy associated with the Brethren, and so much lying by omission. In light of recent events (visiting, contact) I have decided to share with anyone who wants it, something that was useful to me, in trying to figure out what was the truth about pivotal but highly shrouded events in my family's past. Anyone who is interested in hearing the tape of the afternoon reading meeting on July 25, 1970 (otherwise known as the 'Aberdeen' incident) may contact me via email. It is available on CD format and I can also provide a transcript, which was compiled by another former EB and verified by two individuals who were present at the Aberdeen meeting. Any questions on how I obtained this material can be answered backchannel. Depending on how many people are interested in receiving the CD, I may have to ask for a small amount to cover postage.
-Sheila
Guest: Suzanne Hardy
Guest E-mail: suzannehardy57@hotmail.com
City, Country: Los Angeles, CA
Date & Comments: January 18, 2003
Just spent time in New Zealand. Guess What...after years of talking to my husband's mother on the porch, this time she invited us all in. Wow...the rules have suddenly changed. My husband saw his sister after 30 years - Rachael Miller Parks in Manganui. The husband said..."we have realized we have not been very friendly to all of you, and we thought that wasn't right" - so everybody had a cup of tea and exchanged pictures. I have never been in such a thing - just deal with an "ex peeb" - it was wonderful to see such a reunion - but it is all from what I can tell, not from the heart, but a direction from somebody - crazy - and they follow. My brother in law also got a call from his brother in the last two weeks saying "there is always a place at the table for you". From the outside I say, "who are they to determine who is fit for a table or in the eyes of God"...how judgemental of them. My sister in law and husband understand their motives...but I am offended by their thinking that they have privy over everyone else.
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
City, Country: Victoria, BC
Date & Comments: January 19, 2003
Well, there it is, for all to see- the Aberdeen transcripts. I hadn't even seen them for over 30 years, but my reaction was just the same- incredible! We truly believed that when the brethren heard what had transpired, they would reject it en masse- but who could have believed they could pull the wool over so many people's eyes-calling it a "mystery" or an "ambush"
I find it significant, that this is the one subject that is still "off limits" for discussion. In fact BDH still refers to JTjr as "Our Beloved" [see notes of recent meetings, on this website]
I challenge anyone even thinking of "going back" to read this transcript and take up the offer to return under the "Age of Recovery" This is it-in black and white- what caused the split known as "Aberdeen" I suggest anyone who is being visited by the pb's print off a copy of these transcripts, and hand them over to the pb's, and ask if they still believe an "elect vessell' acts and speaks this way. Be intersting to hear what they say. For the record- in spite of the pb's taking legal action against many people, they never attempted to disprove the authenticity of these tapes. Initially they denied them, and suggested they had been altered, but soon decided to call it a "mystery"or an "ambush"- yeah, right!
Guest: Peter French
Guest E-mail: pjfrench@celestial.com.au
City, Country: Melbourne, Australia
Date & Comments: January 19, 2003
Any who have any inclination to go back, or even lend an ear for an instant to the peebs latest ploy, should read Jill Mytton's recent letters again.
Some of us have very short memories. Some of us, it would appear never really left the peebs, and if they apologise enough and go back far enough, finally these poor 'controlled' souls will return to exactly what they left, or were thrown out of.
This is not a religion - this in not Christian. This is anti-christian and devilish. It is and always has been a cult and has been a system under the guise of religion, to further the aims, domain and personal wealth of a succession of self appointed dictators.
When I was a teenager someone 'in the top tier of the ranks of those in control' attempted to explain to me why such control was necessary and how it was accomplished from JND on. I read those mind control and mass hysteria books, including Hilter's writings. These methods were essential for those incapable of making the right decisions for themsleves. Those who attempted to make their own decisions had to '...be left behind...'. The timing of these lessons coincided with me being stopped going to university, but my ability to 'inquire' had been developed just a little by this.
There has been sufficient on this group lately to wake up any who are genuinely in a quandry. However, I think most here really want to go back, and have closed their minds to any infidel like me. Maybe they should go back, for that is possibly where they do belong. Some were born to rule, some were born into servitude, and some were born into blind obedience and total bondage. So be it.
The most will return, the traditionalists and legalistc members of the peebs will break away and form a closed and more extreme religious society. The young will run amok more so than they currently are, and the cult will devour itself - and none too soon. All that is uncertain is the timing.
Guest: George Hayward
Guest E-mail: george.hayward@maxnet.co.nz
City, Country: Wellington, New Zealand.
Date & Comments: January 19, 2003
Although I don't expect to be included in the current round of "please come back" visits, I have been following this saga with great interest, and have also been hearing a little more from some in New Zealand who are being visited or interviewed. For anyone who is to be visited, I offer a suggested line of questioning, by which you can show that you hold the initiative: refer to the "EB Visits" page under "Correspondence" on this site.
The sad fact is: the EB's have allowed themselves to be led astray. Our brethren, family and friends who are still in, suffer from a bondage of deep deception, and if we want them to escape, it will need our sustained earnest prayer. While to some extent, members of the "flock" are responsible for what they have allowed their "leaders" to get away with, most of us have been there too, and share that responsibility.
But now that we are out here in freedom land, we are able to offer help and understanding to those who are still bound, and we can hold the initiative for their rescue. To be most effective, we will have to surrender the short term ambition of looking for personal vindication, although that might come as a by-product later on. Remember Joseph, who said to his brothers "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives." (See Genesis 50:15-21.)
Blessings,
-- George --
Guest: Brenda Bell
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Yandina Creek, Qld, Australia
Date & Comments: January 19, 2003
This recruitment drive seems to be full-on in most areas. My husbands parents turned up unannounced 4 days before xmas and again at an arranged time 2 weeks later accompanied by the local heavy. They spent a couple of hours with us both times and the conversation was 95% catching up on the last 20 years, much joking and happy memories, and 5% "returning to the fellowship" topic. We got a couple of "issues" cleared up which was good but they still don't seem to have got the message that we are not coming back. Other siblings and friends(ex-EB's) have also received various phone calls (some conference calls) and visits with negative results of course. While it is wonderful to have your parents speak so freely with you, there must come a time when they realise you are not interested in returning to their flock and the contact diminishes. The bottom line is they are still under a man's instructions and doing what he says they can now do. It makes you feel so good that you have the freedom to make your own decisions and live with them accordingly. My husband was told by the local heavy that they "need more older, genuine people like yourself"! Bit of an ego boost for a 47 yr old, non church-going truck driver. Fond regards to all who remember us.
Brenda
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
Date & Comments: January 19, 2003
It seems to me that many people, myself and my still-Peeb family included, are presently emotionally and mentally confused. More than usual.
That is, people on both sides of the official EB "line in the sand" seem deeply troubled. It appears, recent changes in the official "EXB" attitudes and approaches are unsettling for family members in most levels of the "EXB Spectrum".
Further, I believe we ALL are being used by the EB top dogs for personal, political and mind-control gain.
What to do?
I know not about what I should practically and emotionally do.
I do know I am a survivor, a success as best I can be and that I will be reunited with my physical family in an ethereal beyond. Heaven?
I do know someone/something higher than me has helped me survive and guides me.
I do believe in "God" and Jesus Christ and his loving teachings.
I despise EB "Man of God" manipulation - past and present.
--Another Anon
P.S. I sign anonymously to protect my "in" family. Dick knows who I am. Serious inquiries as to who wrote this message can ask Dick for permission to contact me directly.
Never before have I felt a need to be "anonymous" - anywhere or anytime. I now fear I might harm my EB family if I post with my name.
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
City, Country: Victoria, BC
Date & Comments: January 20, 2003
Many of us are puzzled by this "Age of Recovery" The"apogogies" are pretty much "canned" [they have been told exactly what to say] However, as previously stated, an apology without repentance is no apology at all. These poor souls are simply doing what they are told. However, I suggest [using pb teaching] "the point of recovery is the point of departure"
By all means invite them into your home, exchange pleasentries, catch up on family, etc. but when the subject is raised about "coming back into fellowship" [but how one returns to what one never left is beyond my understanding] I suggest having a copy of the Aberdeen meetings printed off and at hand. Pass them over, asking them to read them- the pb's have never legally challenged their authenticity- and ask them to read the notes out loud to you. Remember- these are purported to be from the "man of God" the "elect vessell" and "our beloved"and goodness else what they call him. Ask point blank if they agree that that is the work of the Spirit of God. Trust me, this is the one subject that they don't want to deal with. They just want it to go away.
Guest: Hannah Hutton
Guest E-mail: hannah.hutton@ntlworld.com
City, Country: Fleet, Hampshire, UK
Date & Comments: January 20, 2003
I've just read the Aberdeen transcript - which I have seen before, but was only four at the time so it didn't mean much to me then (apart from never seeing a lot of my family ever again).
Maybe I've got the wrong end of the stick but I'd just assumed that all their meetings were like this now, that those "still-in" were there because they were happy to have so called meetings like this, condoned what happened in Aberdeen and that Bruce Hales just spouted the same sort of rubbish as that foul-mouthed drunk back in 1970? Or does Bruce not drink? Or have I got it all wrong.......???
Hannah
Guest: David Sanz
Guest E-mail: dstt0001@terra.es
City, Country: Spain
Date & Comments: January 20, 2003
Dear Sirs,
I'm searching enthusiastically more pictures of JN Darby than those in the John Rylands University of Manchester. The best I've come across to so far is the one that appear on the frontispiece of Max Weremchuck's book.
Please will you be so kind to provide other graphic information of this well known Christian, as well as those places he ministered and was brought up in.
Yours,
David Sanz
Guest: Phil Townshend
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Victoria, BC Canada
Date & Comments: January 20, 2003
Re: Aberdeen transcript.
That such disgusting blasphemous drivel could acually be accepted as a meeting of so-called christians is beyond belief. This is complete apostasy from the 1950's when at least the Lord's name was honored to some degree. It made me want to throw up thinking that these people are going under the name of christianity. How can any one return to such garbage? I thank God for release in 1962.
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: QLD
Date & Comments: January 20, 2003
Even though I wish to remain anon. I hope our friends are staying strong "re: visits" I hope that members of their family who our (still in) are genuine about their love for their families who are out.
I doubt that my husband will receive such a visit (family all out) Has anybody been approached by Friends still in the brethran???? Would be interested.
Stay strong friends
Guest: Peter
Guest E-mail: peter10@btclick.com
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: January 21, 2003
Re Sheila's offer of the tape/CD of the Aberdeen meeting, I would recommend that anyone who has not heard this to get hold of it.
The transcript, shocking as it is, does not give the full effect of what was going on. On the tape it is painfully, indisputably obvious that JTJnr is completely intoxicated. He sometimes makes several attempts to complete a sentence, and sometimes just mutters gibberish and fades away. I remember when he used to make people laugh etc, but this was something else, this tape shocked me and left me in no doubt that he was definitely out of control. The kindest interpretation would be that he had perhaps mixed taking some medication with his usual supply of Scotch, and that this was too powerful even for him.
Guest: Elspeth Leighton (nee Ellis)
Guest E-mail: leighton@dragnet.com.au
City, Country: Leeton, Australia.
Date & Comments: January 21, 2003
My father is Ken Ellis of Cowra Australia. I was born in Sydney 1966, we moved from there to Cowra in 1972.I left the brethren when I was 18.I have seen my father twice since them, (I'm now 36)but I have never seen my mother. I have 2 girls of my own who would love to meet their grandparents.I'm hoping that the cuurent situation going on in th brethren may allow this to happen.
Guest: Pete Wade
Guest E-mail: peter.wade3@virgin
City, Country: UK
Date & Comments: January 21, 2003
Re Peter French Jan 19
Interesting comments. I would also suggest that religion and cultism have nothing to do with Christianity.
Religion is regulation. Christianity is all about relationship
All the best
Pete
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Sydney, Australia
Date & Comments: January 22, 2003
Dick,
Thank you for you continued imput and updates on this site.
If history serves me correctly Stalin and Hitler were referred to as "The Beloved & Our Beloved". Are these guys completly ignorant, and nuts or are they another ideoligy that hates the idea of man being completly free in a modern democractic world. I'm interested to learn if Hitler and Starlin referred to people as a "Son of a Bastard", and is it recorded that they may have threatened to "Sue the Bastards".(Joke)
John
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: January 22, 2003
My parents were in the PBs. Praise God, I was only 1 years of age when they left. However, from what I have learnt, my poor mum suffered the most, having to give up family and friends. This is undoubtedly a cult. God is Love. He dosn't want us to seclude from our non-christian friends. Honestly, when I see them I feel totally ill. They are in bondage. It is wonderful to read the stories in this site. It is equally wonderful to hear that you have stayed closed to the Lord, too. We can only pray that your sad memories be healed by God. thank you
Guest: Laurie Twinam
Guest E-mail: Laurie@twinam.fsnet.co.uk
City, Country: Sevenoaks, UK
Date & Comments: January 22, 2003
The recent publication of part of the proceedings at the infamous 1970 Aberdeen meetings will no doubt have shocked some who visit this site. Shocks are sometimes good for us. If these details had not been ruthlessly suppressed, thousands more would no doubt have left the Jims in disgust long ago. Let me make a few comments.
1 There is no possible excuse for this kind of language from the mouth of any Christian, let alone one who assumed the role of ‘universal leader’
2 The ‘whitewash’ applied by other leaders was much worse than the original scandal. There has been systematic lying, and evil has been called good. ‘The man of God is pure’ is still used as a meaningless mantra.
3 There has been very serious dishonour to the Lord’s name. Although many brethren were kept in ignorance, the ordinary man in the street became aware, in 1970 and subsequently, that the ‘exclusive brethren’ were in disgrace.
4 A whole younger generation of Jims has been incalculably damaged, and there is good reason to doubt whether most of them truly know the Lord.
5 Return to such a set-up is unthinkable for Christians who realize these facts.
6 Certainly we should continue to pray for these misguided folk, and to help them whenever possible. Recovery and cleansing from sin depends on confession and repentance, and the blood of Jesus Christ is available, praise God, for that very purpose, for each individual concerned.
Guest: Jenny Wynne (ex EB)
Guest E-mail: N/A
Date & Comments: January 23, 2003
Why, when the leader of the "Jim's" clicks his fingers and orders his minions to go and recover their loved ones, does he expect us to play ball? I for one, if I get contacted, will not play his game. It will cause too much anguish to see my family and then probably, just as suddenly, be dropped again. My family have shunned me for years, and have called me "evil" to my face, all because I would not accept that what Jim Taylor did at Aberdeen was "of God". If the renewed contact is to be forever I might see them, and perhaps the harm done might be rectified, but it will take more than words which I know have been put into their mouths by their leader to win me round!
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Malmoe, Sweden
Date & Comments: January 23, 2003
Have just been to visit friends in England and I am puzzled to hear the Peebs use a word I did not recognize as I left 29 years ago and that word was the "Elect Vessel". Is that the silver mug they use for the wine at the Rememberance service?? They still use their strange vocabulary and they sound as if they come from another planet.
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
Guest E-mail: sheerimpudence@yahoo.co.uk
City, Country: Great Britain
Date & Comments: January 23, 2003
Having quietly noticed some postings on the recent so called apostles such as JT Jr, Symington, Hales Snr and young Bruce may I please quote from an old book recently given to me by my clergyman uncle who was shunned for years by my family for going into the navy and not coming "into fellowship". He is 77 years old now. The book is entitled "The Brethren" - A brief sketch of their origins, progress and testimony, by Andrew Miller, published by G Morrish, 20 Paternoster Square, London. No date given.
Page 19 - a letter from Mr Mackintosh to a friend: "Amongst those who separated from the various organisations (referring to main line churches) were some men of considerable gift, moral weight, intellectual power and intelligence - clergymen, barristers, solicitors (lawyers in USA) military and naval officers, physicians and men of high position and property."
What a motley crew the current PB’s are, courtesy of JT Jr. and his association ministry (rubbish).
When time permits, I will add a few more quotes as long as Mr Carvel doesn’t count the number of words each time and expect me to beat other participants on this fascinating website in the sweepstakes for the maximum number of entries this year.
Guest: Gregory Morris
Guest E-mail: deiniolgpm@btinternet.com
City, Country: Hawarden, N Wales, Near Chester
Date & Comments: January 24, 2003
My parents are Timothy and Elizabeth Morris of Haywards Heath, West Sussex. My grandmother is Peggy Greeves who is still going strong at 90 plus.
I like visiting this site every so often. Such a pity that everyone seems to be so cynical. I really do appreciate what JN Darby and others since him have taught especially as to what the Church is and who belongs to it.
I think that a meeting that declares that it has no members except those members of the body of Christ is worth going to!
If they are apologising, it does no harm to receive it graciously does it? I was only a babe in arms in 1970 but brought up in a loving and nurturing meeting in Haywards Heath
Greg Morris
St Deiniol's Library,
Hawarden Flints CH5 3DF
Guest: (Suppressed by request)
City, Country: Australia
Date & Comments: January 24, 2003
Wow! The Brethren in Brisbane and in fact all of Queensland, Australia have been going feral.
Recently on my trip to Brisbane, all the Brethren were invited to a function at their Brisbane school. It was more of a party than a function. I was shocked at how wild the younger Brethren are in Brisbane.
At this party there was a band performing, a play by younger Brethren members, the one thing that really left me breathless was the younger Brethren girls dyed their hair bright colours. The skirts they had on were well above their knees. I am shocked at the sight of these people breaking the rules. The older Brethren never said a thing.
I am interested on what will happen at our next function?
Guest: Dave Brewer
Guest E-mail: dave@axatel.net.au
City, Country: Sunbury, Victoria, Australia.
Date & Comments: January 24, 2003
During a recent visit, ( we've been blessed with many of them of late,) I asked if the 'demolition-of-the-Berlin-wall-like'attitude shift was because of the impending BBC Documentary about the Eb's. The reply implied that ' no it wasn't'. They said the person responsible for initiating the documentary, was ' happily back in fellowship'. Yes they said they could understand our cynicism, and some of them seemed genuinely sorry for ' not acting in accordance with the gospel'
Does any one know when a letter entitled 'The Aberdeen Issue-1970' was written. It justifies JTJnr's actions and his discourse at those infamous readings and was signed by R.Gibb, J Scott,J. Graham, A Ker, J.A. Flett & D Taylor.
I wept during some of these visits, when hearing of the sickness and premature deaths within their ranks, of people I loved. Not just ordinary run-of-the-mill sickness, but real serious stuff, like Alzheimers, strokes, heart attacks, manic depression, dementia, MS and the likes. Is this because of the repressive, negative regime they have been subjected to. The Jesus we have come to know, said, "----I come that they might have life and have it more abundantly"
We would be well advised to pray for these sad, brain-washed folks, that they may have their eyes opened to see the King, the Lord of hosts ( cf Isiah c6 Vs 1-5.} And let us praise His wonderful Name, Jesus our Lord.
Guest: Lydia (Meyer) Kietzer
Guest E-mail: lydkiet@msn.com
City, Country: Oakdale MN USA
Date & Comments: January 25, 2003
Guest: Francis Mortyn
Guest E-mail: fra59e@yahoo.com
City, Country: Southern California
Date & Comments: January 25, 2003
Dave Brewer correctly observes that we might well pray for those still trapped in the Brethren system. That is the correct response and it is open to us all. We can overcome evil with good, and excel at forgiving. This does not mean going back to wallow in their mire of self-deception and cruelty; it means setting ourselves free. You are finally free from the cult system when you can forgive them and get on with your life.
Guest: pmclarke
Guest E-mail: clarketrim@shaw.ca
City, Country: Victoria,BC
Date & Comments: January 25, 2003
A very old pb doctrine is" the point of recovery is the point of departure" Well and good- when they visit, why not put the cards right on the table.
They still maintain Jtjr was a"pure man" and an "elect vessel" so that means they would obviously not object to reading the transcripts of Aberdeen, would they? No, they weren't "doctored" or "faked" the audio proves that- and the pb's while strenuosly objecting- never challenged it in court- for the simple reason they knew full well they were accurate. They did, however, attempt to silence anyone who raised their voice at that time by withdrawing from them. Yes, it's very nice to show pictures of the kids, and say "we might have been wrong in the way we handled your case" and "there is a place for you in the assembly" but they still don't want to deal face to face with the issue that lead up to the division 32 years ago- Jt'jr's corrupt language. Sorry, chaps, it wasn't a mystery'; nor was it an "ambush" it was just exactly what it was- corrupt language- and the scripture says "Let no corrupt word go out of your mouth" Scripture also says we are to accept witness. It tells us not to have our judgements tainted with respect of persons. It tells us we are to "cut in a straight line, the word of truth" Amazing how simple it is, isn't it, when you just take the Word of God as your guide. If not- then whose word are you taking?
Guest: Peter French
Guest E-mail: pjfrench@celestial.com.au
City, Country: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia - ex Warrnambool 1982
Date & Comments: January 26, 2003
It will be interesting to see WHO actually gets these 'v